EV West Electric Crate Motor, Thoughts?

[TRS]

I heared about the Leaf swap. Was discussed in the german board. I think it also was a german build. But the numbers are nothing what justifies the effort, at least in my eyes.

Lets say this would not be a EV swap. Now some body says to me:

"I can improve your 0-60 time by about .6s and your bias by 3% closer to 50:50. Only down side is that the weight will increase by 70kg, top speed lowered to (??? 110 ???) and you might have to pause for 20min after each stint to refuel. That all for a price as low as (??? 15k???)!"

There might be interessted customers anyway, but I have to say I wouldnt be one. But thats just my personal preference.

Again, this is not meant as E mobility bashing. I would also say that it is not fair to compared E motors to gasoline in a chassis clearly designed for gasoline. The comparrison would be unfair wise versa. But with this numbers given, a 86 EV swap is getting less reasonable in my bock.

One more note: The Drivetrain and battery used in the vehicle above is not one could discribe as the latest development in E mobility. So there might be options to get some better results. But I would assume that already this swap would break the costs of most other swap options while delivering a less capable result in matters of more or less all points excluding local emissions and enrergy consumption. (and I think that was the Initial question of this thread, correct?)

And even one more disclaimer: I dont say that emissions and ernergy consumption is something without impotance. It is very important and I realy could imagine a EV for my daily drive to work. But therefore a factory Leaf would be as fine as the swap while beeing far less costly and needs far less service as the Leaf is a fully developed system. (only the 380Nm to the Aisin tranny is kind of a slow death)
On the other hand, for my hobby, I would not choose this route and Im honest that I accept the Bad carma for wasting more enrergy than needed. On this point I also would say that the small percentile of tuned and project cars is not what makes the climate change. As well, to compensate my personell bad carma, I spend many years of my worklife with EV projects and I also take care about my ecological footprint fore example by using no senseless plastic bags for shopping or having installed solar panels and environment freindly heating and ernergy saving isolation to my home. If someone would do an overall calculation, Im sure there are more people out there in the country producing a bigger footprint than I do while they dont have a V8 propelled project car and maybe even drive in a EV...

[Irace86.2.0]

As you said, the Leaf motor and batteries aren't the best. Tesla stuff isn't as cheap, but here are some prices:

Tesla Model 3/Y/S/X motor--Prices are around $2500-7500 depending on if someone wants the motor alone or if they want the shafts and whole rear assembly. It will also depend on if someone wants the basic motor or if they want the performance motor. I don't know what these motors are capable of in terms of power, but Tesla (like other manufactures) tends to sell performance with a tune, so the difference between a Tesla 85 and a Tesla P85 motor might just be the tune, which means the motors could be underrated. D stands for dual motors and the front wheel drive motors are naturally not as powerful, so the rear drive units are the ones to look at unless someone wanted an AWD car.

For reference, I attached the power specs from the cars. The 85 motor on the Tesla 85 makes 382hp and 485tq, and the P85 makes 469hp with less torque, but I wouldn't be surprised if the figures are underrated. For instance, the performance, dual-motor P85D is quoted at different hp/tq numbers depending on the year and when it got software updates, but the top number was suppose to be 687tq and this one put down 864tq on the dyno. The numbers are all mysterious, but compelling, which is my point.

http://www.dragtimes.com/blog/tesla-...-lbs-of-torque

P100D dyno numbers. Obviously it has dual motors, but just using it for reference against some quoted numbers, which shows about a 10% or less drivetrain loss on the quoted numbers.

http://www.dragtimes.com/blog/tesla-p100d-dyno

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-2014-2...4383.l4275.c10

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tesla-Model....c100005.m1851


Tesla batteries--Prices on batteries vary, and I don't know much on the subject, but it seems like more battery modules can be added, so someone could start their build with something basic, and then they can add more units as they get more money, which is one option. The guy above used 24kWh.

Here is a 5kW battery for $1350:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tesla-Batte...4383.l4275.c10

Here is a complete 54kWh battery pack and inverter from a Model 3 for $8,500:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2019-Tesla-...4383.l4275.c10

Here is a complete 75kWh battery pack, inverter and Model 3 motor for $15k, which makes 283hp and 330tq:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2019-TESLA-...4383.l4275.c10


This is intended to just give some general ballpark numbers. Condition on used parts and specifics greatly vary what items will cost.

[TRS]

Again, Im not sure if this is the place to discuss Tesla's Model specs. I thought the topic was the feasability of EV swaped 86? Am I wrong?

Concerning weight: Without having any clue about that, but shouldnt be the question what the weight of drivetrain plus battery is? So for the shown options, what are the weight numbers and what would be the theoretical weight of an 86 with this installed?

At the same time it is questionable if it is even possible to find reasonable space for the full packs in a chassis not designed to carry large batterys. Speaking about the mentioned Tesla Hardware, the Pack in its factory form will be not usable in the 86 chassis. The chassis simply not made for this concept. Also the motor wil not fit the 86 chassis in any reasonable manor. Sure, with high enough effort everything is possible. But its far up and away in matters of effort and cost compared to any "conventional" 86 swap and also the Leaf swap concept or the initally proposed swap kit's concept.

In short: A Tesla drivetrain, designed for a innovative, 100% EV chassis concept, is simply no reasonable swap option for any (or at least most) chassis designed for a traditional petrol engine. A helicopter turbine is also no realy fesible swap option for the 86, even it could be done for sure. (Was it yet? )

And once more, I still have the feeling we are talking about pros and cons of E mobility, what I think is completely wrong here. The point is, if it is resonable to E swap the 86. Currently I feel the answers is no and I didnt see points yet making me change this conclusion. Tht it is possible doent need to be discussed, its already proofen.

And again, Im abolutely not saying that EV is bad, even if it is not my personal preference I wouldnt have any Problem to accept it as better swap option for the 86. But honestly I still dont see this yet...

Another "technical" point: I cant imagine that Tesla's inverters and battery management modules will be easily accessible to make them work with foreign Hardware or in an foreign environment. I would expect some Security measures there. But thats just a guess.

[FunnyGopher]

Originally Posted by TRS

I didnt find any confirmed numbers about that, only guessing.

From an article posted on The Drive (secondary source):

"There's no word yet on a final kit or cost, but EV West estimates that the motor —which features some beautiful machining work— will cost somewhere between $25,000 and $35,000 on its own. We'll likely know more when the unit prepares for release in early 2021."

The swap is costly. There other swap platforms that are more financially and power efficient, for sure. But like, I love my 86, and I like the idea of electric cars. If I could keep my 86 and convert it to electric with relative ease, then I'm all for it, even if power or whatever is not as good as it could be for the price. It might be costly, but the idea is new and there's not as much information out there like there is for an LS swap. So the killer for me would be if placement of the hardware just doesn't make the swap feasible. I'm sure it can be done, but on a small chassis that wasn't made for an LS format engine, I can see how that might be a problem.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by TRS

Again, Im not sure if this is the place to discuss Tesla's Model specs. I thought the topic was the feasability of EV swaped 86? Am I wrong?

Concerning weight: Without having any clue about that, but shouldnt be the question what the weight of drivetrain plus battery is? So for the shown options, what are the weight numbers and what would be the theoretical weight of an 86 with this installed?

At the same time it is questionable if it is even possible to find reasonable space for the full packs in a chassis not designed to carry large batterys. Speaking about the mentioned Tesla Hardware, the Pack in its factory form will be not usable in the 86 chassis. The chassis simply not made for this concept. Also the motor wil not fit the 86 chassis in any reasonable manor. Sure, with high enough effort everything is possible. But its far up and away in matters of effort and cost compared to any "conventional" 86 swap and also the Leaf swap concept or the initally proposed swap kit's concept.

In short: A Tesla drivetrain, designed for a innovative, 100% EV chassis concept, is simply no reasonable swap option for any (or at least most) chassis designed for a traditional petrol engine. A helicopter turbine is also no realy fesible swap option for the 86, even it could be done for sure. (Was it yet? )

And once more, I still have the feeling we are talking about pros and cons of E mobility, what I think is completely wrong here. The point is, if it is resonable to E swap the 86. Currently I feel the answers is no and I didnt see points yet making me change this conclusion. Tht it is possible doent need to be discussed, its already proofen.

And again, Im abolutely not saying that EV is bad, even if it is not my personal preference I wouldnt have any Problem to accept it as better swap option for the 86. But honestly I still dont see this yet...

Another "technical" point: I cant imagine that Tesla's inverters and battery management modules will be easily accessible to make them work with foreign Hardware or in an foreign environment. I would expect some Security measures there. But thats just a guess.

EV West is selling a Tesla swap, which is why I posted Tesla model specifications. Maybe that went over your head, or I didn’t make it clear, but the point was that there are different motors and batteries available in the used marketplace, and Tesla’s equipment is probably the best to use because it is high quality, yet used, so discounted over new motors or better than Nissan/GM/etc parts. Anyone considering doing an EV swap will likely want to familiarize themselves with the different motors and configurations and what they are capable of achieving, so they can determine if it is worth the money.

Weight will depend mostly on battery size, which will be needed for more power and more range, but it is not necessary. It depends on the user. I drive less than 10 miles a day, so I wouldn’t need a ton of range. If someone wanted to make a time attack car, autocross car, show car or Sunday driver then they might not need a ton of range either. The guy who did the swap with a Leaf engine and 24kW Leaf battery said the car weighs 150lbs heavier. Obviously if someone added more batteries then the car would weigh more.

For reference, the base Model 3 weighs 3,550lbs with a 50kW battery. It has a wheelbase of 113” and dimensions of 185x73x57”. This is a bit larger than an 86 at 101” wheelbase and 167x70x52”, so perhaps the 86 would be lighter, especially without some of the cameras, autopilot systems, premium products and glass roof. I don’t know for sure. Perhaps packaging inefficiencies in the 86 will lead to excessive weight. Maybe not.

If someone decided to buy used parts, there is some savings in buying in bulk, so an intact Tesla battery is ideal. The shell can be removed, and the inverter and batteries can be organized and configured however someone wants. Someone can also buy the batteries already removed from the shell in 5kW modules. It would be up to them. There would need to be some fabrication to get the batteries mounted, which may be a deterrent to some looking for a drop in kit like a Pure Automotive swap. EV West’s swap will likely only handle the motor side or things; it’ll leave the batteries for the installer to figure out.

Again, some might prefer this over a LS, 2JZ or K swap or whatever other swap can be done. The merits of a swap is always a point to argue. Sometimes it isn’t about what would be the most reliable or perform the best or not weigh the most or not mess up the handling the most or what is the cheapest or what is the most bang for the buck for xxxhp goals. Sometimes a swap is just about doing something different or doing what someone likes or whatever. It isn’t about what is better, especially in the swap world where everyone has done a LS or 2JZ or K swap, and those swaps get old. Until someone that we know does the swap and gives us the price breakdown, we only have conjecture on what is better or cheaper or whatever, but being better may not really matter much. Typically someone attempting a swap already needs to hear people say to just buy a Corvette than attempt their LS swap, for instance. This will be no different.

As far as inverters and such things, I’ll repost this part of his build. Engine management is needed on most swaps, and this is no different, especially for CANBUS integration:

Battery Management System
Orion BMS 2
Everything is fully CAN-bus controlled

Inverter
Nissan Leaf Inverter with Johannes Huebner main board, fully CAN-bus controlled

GT86 ECU
Arduino based replacement ECU for CAN communication with custom written code in C

Charger
ELTEK Valere 3Kw Charger, fully CAN-bus controlled
Chademo-Fast-Charging

DC-DC converter
First GEN-Tesla Model S 360vDC to 12vDC converter

[TRS]

Sure, Integration is always a point to solve. But I doubt that a PRODUCTION Tesla battery pack and motor will make this easy. Maybe I failed a little with unclear wording, but when I say that Tesla hardware is not easy to install in a 86 Im refering to PRODUCTION hardware tanken from crashed vehicles (as you posted). If there is someone who modifys motors and batteries to work in a different setup this is great, but it will not be for free. Also, I only saw the motor yet, and YES, if some body did the work to hook this to a different (billet?) reducer the pure hardware can be integrated. But again, I would expect this beeing costly. And as it seems it is with ~30k for motor only. Sure might be less some day, but Im refering not what could be in X years. Im sure the time will come, but now I feel its not here pricewise.

Last but not least, a base topic to understand about EV is not comparing the capacity, range, power of the motor. Those things are just base variables, like tank capacity of a petrol car. In EV applications it comes down to the management done by the inverter on one hand and the battery controller on the other. The biggest battery is useless without a clever management. And I still doubt that this is a functinality which will be easily accessible in a Tesla (or most other manufacturer) ECU. I would be surprised if there would be no security measures to prevent third parties from copy the know how.

But if we want to compare performance data: The discussed swap Motor, even if the most powerfull setting of the tablet given above is used, is not achieving the 0-60 time of a factory LS3 in a 86 Chassis. Why? Simple: You cant take the AWD 0-60 times since this swap will still keep it a RWD. A 430HP LS3 can achieve 4.1s 0-60. I dont see one RWD 0-60 above which is lower. (at the same time, the LS3 Swap will be lighter than a Tesla based EV swap since already the far less powerfull Leaf swap is same weight as a LS swap) Also, weight placemaent of EV Equipment in a 86 will be less optimal than in the production EV vehicles above. So if it would be lighter (and have less range) since not the complete battery Pack can be placed, I doubt it would beat the production car times.

Still, motor (as done by EV West) and battery needs heavy modifications to fit a 86 chassis. And I would be more than surprised if someone would offer this for free or very low costs. So this effort adds to the price of a New or used drive unit and battery. I hope that makes now clear what Im talking about.

As little wrap up for now:

Concept: FA20 FI / LS swap / EV swap
Weight: +20kg / +70kg / +70 and far up
Handling: best / medium / medium
Cost: 15k / 10-20k / 20k++
Acceleration: best / good / good
Top speed: good / best / poor
Range: best / medium / poor
Service effort: high / low / low

This would be my assumption while expecting 400hp FA20 FI, 430HP LS3, Single EV engine with Party battery Pack due to space restriction in 86 chassis as expected base. What would be your estimate?

[toast]

Dude, we get it, your LS swap is amazing. That isn't what this is about. At some point someone takes a deep dive and converts an 86 to electric. They learn, they share, the next person to take it on does it better. Batteries and motors constantly get better while all this is going on. RIGHT NOW it might be tough to imagine this, but as people work on it and more people crash Teslas and take them apart this could become a more feasible thing.

I'm converting an old motorcycle to electric. The end product will not have anywhere near the range it currently does but it will be a hoot with all that torque and should be a good learning experience. That is the point of this thread.

[TRS]

Hmm, I thought I made clear that Im not against EVs, though they are not my personal favorit. I also dont want to say that any LS swap, especially not mine, is better than this or that.

As you said, things are changing and development goes on. There are EVs out there setting new records and proof the upsides and superiority of this concept under specific conditions. But as you said also, currently a EV swap maybe isnt the most effective option. Not more is what Im stating. Still, it is possible, no doubt about that. But thats already proofen and dont think this was the question as it also wasnt the question if a LS swap (again, especially not mine) is better than whatever EV swap. But what I understood was, that the discussion was if this is an alternativ (in my underatanding it means that its more "bang for the bug") to other swap options (not meaning specificall a LS swap, and especially not mine).

Currently I would say that EV swapping is not "more bang for the bug". But Im the last one how is not open to be convinced about the oposite. If price and performance would exceed other options, I might have done something like that, even if I would realy miss the Sound of a petrol car. But I would never Do this just to follow the latest trend. Thats my style of thinking, sorry about that...

[Irace86.2.0]

$15k for FI? A used FI kit goes for $3.5k. Flex fuel, injectors, custom tune and a clutch and someone is making 350whp before they need a built motor n tranny swap. I’m pushing a bar of boost on E85 with a stock motor and stock tranny. Service effort high, low, low? How do you figure?

Most LS swaps with CANBUS integration are way over $20k, even with used parts. Pure Auto quotes around $40-45k for their LS swap. It can be done cheaper of course if no CANBUS, DIY, used good motor that doesn’t need rebuild, etc.

As far as the Tesla parts, their hardware is routinely used for swaps. Motors/batteries won’t need a rebuild. Also, there are companies selling Tesla tunes that mimic Tesla’s own performance tunes for less money, so their security in their own cars is not impenetrable. With that said, a battery is a battery and a motor is a motor. They can be used with off the shelf generic inverters or converters.

The EV West swap would be cool because an EV with a manual transmission would be cool, but the best performance and least weight would come from a rear mounted engine, but that would need much more fabrication. These things will become more common. EV West wasn’t trying to take a dig at LS swaps or suggest their swap is better, so no need to be defensive about it. People want to do what people want to do.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.tes...performed/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/electre...rter-mile/amp/

A Tesla-powered Honda S2000 that ran the quarter-mile in 10 seconds.

The Honda S2000 is a coveted entry-level track and tuner car. But the cute roadster was turned into a rear-wheel-drive, compact beast when the André family get their hands on it. The family owns and runs Quebec-based Véhicules Électriques, an EV dealership and service center. In-house technicians collaborated on the project with Jason Hughes of 057 Technology, a North Carolina firm specializing in aftermarket Tesla components.

The entire rear axle of the S2000 was replaced with a Tesla Model S axle, including its drive unit and brakes. Power is supplied by a P100D motor with energy stored in two Chevy Volt battery packs. The builders said they put in extra welding time to ensure that massive electric torque didn’t tear the S2000’s body apart. The 650-horsepower Honda reaches 60 mph in less than 2.5 seconds.

[Irace86.2.0]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/driving...an-ev-easy/amp

https://electricgt.com/shop/

A few other companies doing swaps. The one below even looks like a V8.

[Irace86.2.0]

[TRS]

Ok, you are right, I'm wrong. Last 20 years of engineering confession and doing custom car build and you opened my eyes. What did I wrong to not beeing able pushing 350 daily driveable, long time Vmax stable and track proofed whp out of a NA to FI swaped 2 Liter engine for as low as 3.5k? Im such a dump guy that I never achieved that. Should have bought the next best bolt on Turbo and just push it through a 24h race. I didnt know that buying used turbos is the secret for a reliable and low cost FI build. Thanks for that tip, the few build Ive done so far were just crap. Also, EV is the one and only everything. Its the Best. Simply. Nothing else has any kind of justification. How Was I able to miss that after nearly one decade of working on E mobility projects. I could have made millions if I knew this early by giving the developers the advice that its total nonsens to develop a specific Chassis concept for E mobility instead of simply putting this E stuff into petrol engine chassis. Better dont tell the managers, all those developers might lose their jobs. I'll watch out for the dozens of EV swaps for petrol cars currently out there. I just didnt know that everyone but me already learned that this is the best way to swap since years. We shouldnt build more cars also, just EV swap everything out there. How was I able to oversee that under the impression of meanwhile 99% of the car guys who figure that out and no one is even talking about different swaps any longer. Sorry for my uneducated attempt to make a straight forward technical discussion. I'm just without any knowledge. (Did you fully whatch and listen to the videos you posted?)

One last thing, one thing I realy mean as say it: Those are great build made with high technical knowledge and insane effort. They have my highest respect as engineer.

Now

[Irace86.2.0]

I was just comparing used to used. I bought a used Harrop kit with no complaints. I haven’t blown the motor or tranny yet at 1bar.

Most people will get a used LS/tranny and not do a rebuild or can’t do a rebuild themselves, so a built LS puts them into the same place as doing a FA build/tranny. If they don’t do a rebuild on a used motor then they can hope all is well after a compression check and oil examination. That’s typically what most people do. Sometimes it works out. Sometimes it doesn’t, but arguing what is best in a swap forum typically doesn’t go well. I would know. It isn’t well received. Most people just want to do what they want to do.

Maybe not now, but the aftermarket community will catch up. People will learn how to do these and kits will be made. EV West’s kit is just one of several. They are smart developing a LS kit because it instantly makes their product available and compatible with all the other LS swap engine mounts and subframe hardware. Until these kits are all inclusive and plug n play, it will take some know how, skillset and determination. It won’t be for the faint of heart, but that is the case of most swaps, even a plug n play swap like Pure Motorsport’s.

Again, I don’t think anyone is trying to say it is better, but you are fixated on that and seem to be taking things to the extreme. I think people are just refuting the notion that the cost is inherently astronomical for what you believe will be modest power increases, which seems to be your argument and/or tone.

We had a guy here do a Synergy swap with a Hollinger or something. Some people have deep pockets. I wanna see someone do something bad ass with a Tesla motor like that S2000. That, and I love a sleeper. Solidsnake11’s K24 massive turbo monster build and your LS build are awesome. Pulling up on someone who hears a big turbo spool or WOT with a mean V8 suddenly...I wish I was there to see their face when they were expecting 200hp from an 86. Imagine a super silent 600hp EV 86 pulling up to a Corvette. The facial expression

[Irace86.2.0]

These guys have a whole build series of multiple cars.