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View Poll Results: Which jab have you had?
Pfizer 53 51.96%
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Johnson & Johnson 6 5.88%
AstraZeneca 4 3.92%
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Sputnik 1 0.98%
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Old 04-13-2021, 08:38 AM   #1611
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"April 13 (Reuters) - U.S. federal health agencies on Tuesday will call for an immediate pause in use of Johnson & Johnson's single-dose COVID-19 vaccine after six U.S. recipients developed a rare disorder involving blood clots, the New York Times reported, citing officials briefed on the decision."

Would they really pause it over 6 people? I mean that can't be statistically significant.

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It really Isn't, according to USAToday 6.8 million doses have already been administered. But just like when the boss lady witnessed a young girl get a seizure right after getting her J&J vaccine, these types of cases should be investigated, out of abundance of caution, like the announcement from J&J states. Better safe than sorry. Can't give a reason to worry to people already on the fence about getting a vaccine.
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Old 04-13-2021, 09:02 AM   #1612
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"April 13 (Reuters) - U.S. federal health agencies on Tuesday will call for an immediate pause in use of Johnson & Johnson's single-dose COVID-19 vaccine after six U.S. recipients developed a rare disorder involving blood clots, the New York Times reported, citing officials briefed on the decision."

Would they really pause it over 6 people? I mean that can't be statistically significant.

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Well, that certainly puts a damper on our prospects of getting vaccinated tomorrow. I think we were going to get the J&J but we will see if they cancel on us due to this pause.

Perhaps vaccine safety isn't about statistically significant numbers, but more about ensuring it is safe for everyone, or at least identifying people who should not receive it due to underlying conditions and such.

Whether something is statistically relevant only applies to their trials, when it would have been unlikely to show up. This issue is extremely rare so it may have not shown up in a person within their sample set. The fact that the authorities on such matters are taking this seriously is a good sign.
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Old 04-13-2021, 09:13 AM   #1613
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Vaccine might be more effective for a single strain but natural immunity seems to be more effective on mutations. They are trying to figure out how to make vaccines mimick this better.

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-pers...7-better-b1351
I am not up to speed on how immunity works but how does natural immunity help if the virus is killing you or giving you heath problems for the rest of your life?
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Old 04-13-2021, 10:29 AM   #1614
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I am not up to speed on how immunity works but how does natural immunity help if the virus is killing you or giving you heath problems for the rest of your life?
Well yes, but if it's going to kill you or cause severe problems than your immunity isn't working well. Much of it depends on age, deficiencies, and the level of exposure. (i.e. did you breathe in one little molecule or touch a door knob someone sneezed on)... It's all risk vs reward IMHO. As a younger person with a great immune system I would rather be exposed in microdoses to the actual thing if I could control it reasonably. Might sound irrational (and it's totally impractical anyway) but that's my view on it. The body is better prepared for the next strain/mutation that way the vaccines work better on a particular strain but then I'm not sure if that helps you or harms when it comes to the next strain or if you become dependent on vaccine every year or 6 months or as often as new strains come around.

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Old 04-13-2021, 10:54 AM   #1615
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Well yes, but if it's going to kill you or cause severe problems than your immunity isn't working well. Much of it depends on age, deficiencies, and the level of exposure. (i.e. did you breathe in one little molecule or touch a door knob someone sneezed on)... It's all risk vs reward IMHO. As a younger person with a great immune system I would rather be exposed in microdoses to the actual thing if I could control it reasonably. Might sound irrational (and it's totally impractical anyway) but that's my view on it. The body is better prepared for the next strain/mutation that way the vaccines work better on a particular strain but then I'm not sure if that helps you or harms when it comes to the next strain or if you become dependent on vaccine every year or 6 months or as often as new strains come around.

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How do you know you aren't spreading it to other people when you get these "microdoses" as you call it. That is kind of a selfish point of view.

Also, FYI, you get a greater amount of replicating virus from actually catching covid than you do from a vaccine (some vs none) so calling one a microdose of the other is an incorrect characterization. They are two different things which trigger the same immune response. The difference is that the vaccine doesn't do much else.

The virus will continue to do damage while it is in your body. The range of side effects of the vaccine are entirely dependent on the body's reaction to it. The body would likely have similar reactions to the virus if unvaccinated. The virus has additional effects caused by the damage it does.

If you are intending to live well into retirement age, your current philosophy is counter to your own survival. As you age, you will become more susceptible to the virus should it survive. If more people catch it and allow it to replicate and mutate the chances are greater that it will be there when you are 60+, and there is no guarantee your immune system will protect you.
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Old 04-13-2021, 11:07 AM   #1616
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How do you know you aren't spreading it to other people when you get these "microdoses" as you call it. That is kind of a selfish point of view.



Also, FYI, you get a greater amount of replicating virus from actually catching covid than you do from a vaccine (some vs none) so calling one a microdose of the other is an incorrect characterization. They are two different things which trigger the same immune response. The difference is that the vaccine doesn't do much else.



The virus will continue to do damage while it is in your body. The range of side effects of the vaccine are entirely dependent on the body's reaction to it. The body would likely have similar reactions to the virus if unvaccinated. The virus has additional effects caused by the damage it does.



If you are intending to live well into retirement age, your current philosophy is counter to your own survival. As you age, you will become more susceptible to the virus should it survive. If more people catch it and allow it to replicate and mutate the chances are greater that it will be there when you are 60+, and there is no guarantee your immune system will protect you.
Well, yes, it is a selfish point of view. But everyone getting immunity for one strain completely stopping it from making more strains is not going happen as there are already other mutations out there and not everyone can even get immunization anyway. Even if we do achieve herd immunity somehow it's already too late. So I still think it's a risk/reward scenario.

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Old 04-13-2021, 11:30 AM   #1617
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The concept of statistical significance is not a applied when entire populations are involved. It is used in studies involving sampling techniques to estimate the potential impact of sampling error on the observed results. The question is "how likely is it that what I observe in my data are due to the fact that the sample is wonky (not representative of the population) and are NOT indicative of what happens in the real world?" If the likelihood that the observed findings are due to chance is less than .05 or better still .01 then many researchers are willing to say the findings are "real." If you're a glutton for punishment, google up Type 1 and Type 2 errors.

6 incidents out of almost seven million doses is by some reckonings not a cause for concern. That said, with the causal chain a mystery, drug makers and government health authorities tend to be hyper cautious about distribution of new drugs. The specter of the Thalidomide Disaster in the 60s casts a long shadow.

I suspect the pause(es) in the distributions of the AZ and J&J vaccines will be temporary, Both vaccines use a different "carrier} process from the Moderna and Pfizer products. My bet is the really smart people studying this will get something of a handle on the clotting problems pretty quickly and we'll be back in business.

Some seem to think the current vaccines offer immunity to only one strain of virus and therefore it is not worth getting vaccinated because of the possibility of variants. This is wrongheaded for a number of reasons. First, the current vaccines ARE effective (to a greater of lesser extent) against all known strains of the virus (as far as I can tell). Second, the rush to vaccinate is due to the concern that a mutation will occur that will create a new strain that can breakout through the vaccine shield. The longer the virus runs loose in the population the more likely that "breakout" mutation will happen.


Most recent edit: Sometimes I really wish we could cordon off a continent, build a bubble over and put all the deniers (vaccines, climate change, and all the rest) there. They could share their reality and the rest of us could share ours. It would isolate the rest of the population from the effects of the decisions of of the deniers and would present a series of interesting natural experiments for biological and social scientists..
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Old 04-13-2021, 11:34 AM   #1618
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Also, FYI, you get a greater amount of replicating virus from actually catching covid than you do from a vaccine (some vs none) so calling one a microdose of the other is an incorrect characterization. They are two different things which trigger the same immune response. The difference is that the vaccine doesn't do much else.

Remember, an mRNA vaccine is not using an attenuated viral vaccine.
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Old 04-13-2021, 01:01 PM   #1619
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Remember, an mRNA vaccine is not using an attenuated viral vaccine.
Yes, that is the point.
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Old 04-13-2021, 01:28 PM   #1620
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I just feel that the same thing is being explained over and over again as if it will eventually get through.

But, I can tell you, it won't. If for some reason we enjoy the banter, then OK. But forget about people like Pilot, use common sense. He probably flies for Delta lol.
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Old 04-13-2021, 01:45 PM   #1621
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I just feel that the same thing is being explained over and over again as if it will eventually get through.

But, I can tell you, it won't. If for some reason we enjoy the banter, then OK. But forget about people like Pilot, use common sense. He probably flies for Delta lol.
Delta would be an upgrade, lol. Anyway no need for personal attacks you don't have hang out in this thread if it bothers you.

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Old 04-13-2021, 03:32 PM   #1622
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After faucis latest comments I'm beginning to reconsider the vaccine entirely. What's the point? Bullshit virtue signaling.

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Old 04-13-2021, 04:00 PM   #1623
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After faucis latest comments I'm beginning to reconsider the vaccine entirely. What's the point? Bullshit virtue signaling.
Care to share which comments?
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Old 04-13-2021, 05:12 PM   #1624
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Care to share which comments?
Sure. Let's start with him having no explanation for decline in cases where the mask mandates were ceased. Another is that we shouldn't dine indoors even after vaccination. Let's face it, hes lost his compass
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