follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Speed By Design
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > Off-Topic Discussions > Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions

Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions Discuss all other cars and automotive news here.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-05-2023, 01:18 AM   #15
Sasquachulator
Pavement Grey
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Drives: 2020 Toyota 86 GT, 2017 BMW X1
Location: Calgary
Posts: 3,098
Thanks: 109
Thanked 2,233 Times in 1,213 Posts
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Theres a reason why Kei cars in Japan works....its so densely populated there. If you ever been there alot of the roads are very skinny. Even the major open roads are skinny. My mother in law owns a BMW 5 series and its baffling how she can manage to get around there. She once told me one of the benefits of having a car that big in Japan was that everyone gets out of your way lol. Freeways/highways arent a big deal but once you get into the rural areas there are roads where you're basically sharing the road with traffic going the other way, cyclists and pedestrians (which might not even have a sidewalk for them to walk on) The population is very good with sharing the road though so there's really no worrying about some asshole driver being a **** trying to run you off.

These will never work here because they'd be rolling deathtraps against dodge rams, F150's and other cars. Think of a honda civic from the 70's/80's. Door panels on kei cars are paper thin (probably contributes somewhat to how tardis like they seem to be on the inside....that and most of them are shaped like a literal box)

How did the Smart fourtwo fare? How did the Scion iQ fare? They didnt really work out and the only thing those cars (which ARENT kei cars) have in common with a kei car is that they're tiny.

The other thing about kei cars is that they're they're slow for american roads. They feel peppy and fine in japan because kei cars are everywhere and everything is scaled down. you dont feel like that first gen prius trying to get up to highway speeds against semis, rams, accords, camry V6's...etc. hell people bitch and whine about the twins being slow...how could they possibly accept a kei car?

And then the Sakura is popular because a Kei car EV makes sense there...not an Ariya, not a BZ4x....plus you dont need 300 miles of EV range in Japan unless you're planning on driving to another city. Almost everything is walkable, and if not the transit infrastructure is insanely good. I beleive you can travel the entire mainland from north to south just on bullet train....might take a few days but you can do it.
Sasquachulator is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Sasquachulator For This Useful Post:
Dadhawk (08-05-2023), Irace86.2.0 (08-05-2023), MyHybridBurnsGasAndTires (08-08-2023), NoHaveMSG (08-05-2023), soundman98 (08-05-2023)
Old 08-05-2023, 08:49 AM   #16
Dadhawk
1st86 Driver!
 
Dadhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Drives: '13 FR-S (#3 of 1st 86)
Location: Powder Springs, GA
Posts: 19,853
Thanks: 38,937
Thanked 25,016 Times in 11,410 Posts
Mentioned: 182 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
I'm with @Sasquachulator as to why it won't work in the US, plus there is the whole issue of them not even being legal here from a regulatory standpoint. They are only legal in Japan because of their special class.

These manufacturers are in the business of making money. If their research showed these would be profitable in the US they would be building them in the US.

I loved my '77 Honda Civic, but it's size and safety features (or lack thereof) just don't fit in current traffic. Same with these. You'd be safer on a motorcycle.
__________________
Olivia 05/03/2012 - 01/06/2024. 231,146 glorious miles.

Visit my Owner's Journal where I wax philosophic on all things FR-S
Post your 86 or see others in front of a(n) (in)famous landmark.
What fits in your 86? Show us the "Junk In Your Trunk".
Dadhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dadhawk For This Useful Post:
Sasquachulator (08-09-2023), soundman98 (08-05-2023)
Old 08-05-2023, 03:11 PM   #17
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,884
Thanks: 5,668
Thanked 5,806 Times in 3,300 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasquachulator View Post
Theres a reason why Kei cars in Japan works....its so densely populated there. If you ever been there alot of the roads are very skinny. Even the major open roads are skinny. My mother in law owns a BMW 5 series and its baffling how she can manage to get around there. She once told me one of the benefits of having a car that big in Japan was that everyone gets out of your way lol. Freeways/highways arent a big deal but once you get into the rural areas there are roads where you're basically sharing the road with traffic going the other way, cyclists and pedestrians (which might not even have a sidewalk for them to walk on) The population is very good with sharing the road though so there's really no worrying about some asshole driver being a **** trying to run you off.

These will never work here because they'd be rolling deathtraps against dodge rams, F150's and other cars. Think of a honda civic from the 70's/80's. Door panels on kei cars are paper thin (probably contributes somewhat to how tardis like they seem to be on the inside....that and most of them are shaped like a literal box)

How did the Smart fourtwo fare? How did the Scion iQ fare? They didnt really work out and the only thing those cars (which ARENT kei cars) have in common with a kei car is that they're tiny.

The other thing about kei cars is that they're they're slow for american roads. They feel peppy and fine in japan because kei cars are everywhere and everything is scaled down. you dont feel like that first gen prius trying to get up to highway speeds against semis, rams, accords, camry V6's...etc. hell people bitch and whine about the twins being slow...how could they possibly accept a kei car?

And then the Sakura is popular because a Kei car EV makes sense there...not an Ariya, not a BZ4x....plus you dont need 300 miles of EV range in Japan unless you're planning on driving to another city. Almost everything is walkable, and if not the transit infrastructure is insanely good. I beleive you can travel the entire mainland from north to south just on bullet train....might take a few days but you can do it.
There is a certain amount of standards that should be included in cars, but like motorcycles, if someone wants to increase their risk then that is on them. It seems silly for companies to be forced into making three-wheeled, passenger cars to circumvent laws. They are clearly handicapping those vehicles, while not really keeping anyone safer, especially when four wheels would be better than three.



Again, motorcycles share roads and highways with 80k pound 18-wheelers. There is no reason why the SmartCar or iQ is fine, but this Nissan would be a problem, especially since it is longer and taller than the iQ and weighs as much as a Miata and has a 9Ē longer wheelbase. It is just narrow, and it uses a bench seat to accommodate a squishier cabin over the iQ.

We have plenty of dense cities in the US with tight roads and limited parking like SF that make kei cars appealing. There are people like me in smaller cities with a short commute without needing to get on the highway that could use a daily that is basic. I think EVs would fix a lot of the shortcomings with kei cars and be able to free up some design constraints because of the smaller motor and longer wheelbase, all while making them slightly safer due to a low COG, no engine, stiffer chassis. It could help get more people into EVs too, especially with ride sharing and autonomous driving in the future.

I think your points are valid, but I also think EVs have changed things, which would make it worth revisiting.
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
Irace86.2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Irace86.2.0 For This Useful Post:
Dadhawk (08-06-2023), NoHaveMSG (08-07-2023)
Old 08-05-2023, 03:36 PM   #18
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,884
Thanks: 5,668
Thanked 5,806 Times in 3,300 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Iím also talking about small cars in general over just kei carsóminicars. There is a number of cool kei cars below, and Iíve mentioned some mini cars already. The government could incentivize people to buy mini-EVs too with tax rebates in the same way Japan incentivizes kei cars. Cheaper cars usually get a break on registration fees and insurance, but the government could do more.

https://www.retromotor.co.uk/features/kei-cars-story/

Autozam AZ-1




Honda Beat
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
Irace86.2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2023, 03:41 PM   #19
soundman98
ProCrastinationConsultant
 
soundman98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Drives: '14 Ranger, '18 Tacoma 4Dr LB
Location: chicago-ish
Posts: 11,330
Thanks: 35,240
Thanked 13,675 Times in 6,782 Posts
Mentioned: 98 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
my state has carved out a dedicated mini truck plate and legal framework.



i had no idea it even existed until a year ago when i finally saw 1 kei truck with the plate. haven't seen another since.

kei-vehicles just aren't popular in the states, even when special regulations are carved out specifically for them to thrive.
__________________
"The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time"
soundman98 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to soundman98 For This Useful Post:
Irace86.2.0 (08-05-2023), NoHaveMSG (08-07-2023)
Old 08-05-2023, 03:59 PM   #20
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,884
Thanks: 5,668
Thanked 5,806 Times in 3,300 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Diminutive, but ready for FnF.

Attached Images
 
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
Irace86.2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2023, 05:11 PM   #21
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,884
Thanks: 5,668
Thanked 5,806 Times in 3,300 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundman98 View Post
my state has carved out a dedicated mini truck plate and legal framework.

i had no idea it even existed until a year ago when i finally saw 1 kei truck with the plate. haven't seen another since.

kei-vehicles just aren't popular in the states, even when special regulations are carved out specifically for them to thrive.
Iím sure youíre not the only one that didnít/doesnít know, so that could also be why they arenít more popular. The article I posted before mentions that the importers are maxed out on kei truck requests. There are probably more around than people think, but overall, how many will be imported? There is a premium to do so. I think there would be more demand if they were sold stateside. I know the Jimny would be a hit and continues to be discussed, as a short-wheelbase, mini 4x4. Smaller trucks in general are missing from the market, so a mini truck would be a hit.

Iíve mentioned the Honda Grom being a hit, but these little pocket bikes have a cult following and stole the show at a Monterey Bay pre-WSB/Laguna Seca impromptu bike show that forms each year.
Attached Images
  
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
Irace86.2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2023, 09:02 AM   #22
tiger1964
Senior Member
 
tiger1964's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Drives: 2023 BRZ
Location: Maryland
Posts: 136
Thanks: 14
Thanked 78 Times in 43 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
The government could incentivize people to buy mini-EVs too with tax rebates in the same way Japan incentivizes kei cars. Cheaper cars usually get a break on registration fees and insurance, but the government could do more.
I agree with this. There could be a strong sliding scale on registration based on size, mpg, whatever criterion works best.

With my wife retiring in two years, and I'm already there, we'll really only need one car with the power and range to go longer distances and/or tow... and the BRZ is likely it for some time. When I replace my Boxster, probably in 2030, I would be content with a small "local runabout" whether a small EV of an ICE Kei car.
__________________
1964 Sunbeam Tiger, 2015 Porsche Boxster, 2023 Subaru BRZ
tiger1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to tiger1964 For This Useful Post:
Irace86.2.0 (08-08-2023)
Old 08-07-2023, 03:42 PM   #23
alex87f
Meow
 
alex87f's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Drives: GT86, Volvo 996
Location: France
Posts: 540
Thanks: 321
Thanked 452 Times in 240 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
Iím also talking about small cars in general over just kei carsóminicars. There is a number of cool kei cars below, and Iíve mentioned some mini cars already. The government could incentivize people to buy mini-EVs too with tax rebates in the same way Japan incentivizes kei cars. Cheaper cars usually get a break on registration fees and insurance, but the government could do more.
The Japanese way is not only to offer reduced tax on Kei cars, but also to heavily tax other types of vehicles.

I don't know all US sales & registration taxes, but waving them altogether may not create a strong enough incentive.
alex87f is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to alex87f For This Useful Post:
Irace86.2.0 (08-08-2023)
Old 08-08-2023, 12:30 AM   #24
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,884
Thanks: 5,668
Thanked 5,806 Times in 3,300 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex87f View Post
The Japanese way is not only to offer reduced tax on Kei cars, but also to heavily tax other types of vehicles.

I don't know all US sales & registration taxes, but waving them altogether may not create a strong enough incentive.
Some states have no registration fees and some have tiny fees and some have larger fees. For a family with three to four vehicles in California, you can be paying a few hundred or over a thousand for all vehicles. We have a Q5, BRZ and Ducati and pay $750-1000. Small and cheap cars are already cheaper, so you are right that it probably wouldn't make a huge different. Like EVs, a federal and state tax credit/rebate would be best, and of course, they could require manufactures selling over a certain number of cars to have an option for mini cars/trucks or something.
__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
Irace86.2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2023, 01:06 AM   #25
Sasquachulator
Pavement Grey
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Drives: 2020 Toyota 86 GT, 2017 BMW X1
Location: Calgary
Posts: 3,098
Thanks: 109
Thanked 2,233 Times in 1,213 Posts
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
Iím also talking about small cars in general over just kei carsóminicars. There is a number of cool kei cars below, and Iíve mentioned some mini cars already. The government could incentivize people to buy mini-EVs too with tax rebates in the same way Japan incentivizes kei cars. Cheaper cars usually get a break on registration fees and insurance, but the government could do more.

https://www.retromotor.co.uk/features/kei-cars-story/

Autozam AZ-1




Honda Beat
Most small cars have already disappeared or will be gone from the N/A Market. The only ones left are the Nissan Versa, Kia Rio and the Mitsubishi Mirage (which is ancient in car years). Yaris is gone, Mazda2 is gone, Fit is gone...Chevy Spark is gone, Hyundai Accent i think disappeared......a kei car is not even a starting point of outside of that 25year old exemption rule (15years in Canada muhahaha)
Sasquachulator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2023, 03:09 AM   #26
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Irace86.2.0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 7,884
Thanks: 5,668
Thanked 5,806 Times in 3,300 Posts
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasquachulator View Post
Most small cars have already disappeared or will be gone from the N/A Market. The only ones left are the Nissan Versa, Kia Rio and the Mitsubishi Mirage (which is ancient in car years). Yaris is gone, Mazda2 is gone, Fit is gone...Chevy Spark is gone, Hyundai Accent i think disappeared......a kei car is not even a starting point of outside of that 25year old exemption rule (15years in Canada muhahaha)
Jimny is sold in Mexico. Tell me you wouldn't want this beast to go off-roading? Small cars are gone intentionally. It isn't because consumers don't want them. It is because manufactures want to sell the biggest thing possible to make the most money, but it isn't what may be best. We just need incentives. EVs could fix everything that sucks about a minicar; more room, more performance, better safety, better handling, etc. I'm saying we should revisit them and incentivize production and sale of minicars. With robotaxis and FSD cars, seems like these will be there in the future.

__________________
My Build | K24 Turbo Swap | *K24T BRZ SOLD*
Irace86.2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2023, 07:25 AM   #27
Dadhawk
1st86 Driver!
 
Dadhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Drives: '13 FR-S (#3 of 1st 86)
Location: Powder Springs, GA
Posts: 19,853
Thanks: 38,937
Thanked 25,016 Times in 11,410 Posts
Mentioned: 182 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
Small cars are gone intentionally. It isn't because consumers don't want them. It is because manufactures want to sell the biggest thing possible to make the most money, but it isn't what may be best. We just need incentives.
I disagree. Yes, there is some set of the buying public that would love a small vehicle like this, but at least in the US, it isn't there. It isn't some grand conspiracy, it's just not what the buying public wants in a vehicle any longer in any meaningful numbers.

Just the fact that you think they should be subsidized to drive interest speaks to the interest not being there. The products should stand on their own, as should EVs for that matter.
__________________
Olivia 05/03/2012 - 01/06/2024. 231,146 glorious miles.

Visit my Owner's Journal where I wax philosophic on all things FR-S
Post your 86 or see others in front of a(n) (in)famous landmark.
What fits in your 86? Show us the "Junk In Your Trunk".
Dadhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dadhawk For This Useful Post:
soundman98 (08-12-2023)
Old 08-09-2023, 07:36 AM   #28
alex87f
Meow
 
alex87f's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Drives: GT86, Volvo 996
Location: France
Posts: 540
Thanks: 321
Thanked 452 Times in 240 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadhawk View Post
I disagree. Yes, there is some set of the buying public that would love a small vehicle like this, but at least in the US, it isn't there. It isn't some grand conspiracy, it's just not what the buying public wants in a vehicle any longer in any meaningful numbers.

Just the fact that you think they should be subsidized to drive interest speaks to the interest not being there. The products should stand on their own, as should EVs for that matter.

This is a chicken or the egg type of situation. Are they gone because the public doesn't want them, or are they dismissed by the buying public because larger vehicles are pushed onto the consumer through marketing / availability / etc. ?

There isn't much a 2023 vehicle does that a smaller equivalent from 15 years ago doesn't.
alex87f is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to alex87f For This Useful Post:
Irace86.2.0 (08-09-2023), MyHybridBurnsGasAndTires (08-09-2023)
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WTB: 57cr in SAKURA PINK snpie Want-To-Buy Requests 0 03-12-2021 09:21 PM
gramlights 57cr sakura pink 17x9 +38 j1 Wheels and Tires 4 10-22-2019 10:14 PM
All SOLD: Nissan Frontier PRO-4X OEM carpet Floor mats please delete. AustinTCLN Miscellaneous 1 05-24-2016 09:24 PM
The Scion FR-S Needs More Power Says Nissan Product Boss: Nissan Mad??? vh_supra26 Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 105 05-01-2014 09:51 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.