6MT vs Paddle shiftting Auto

[Zaku]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

1. It's still cheating, even if everybody "has" to cheat to win. F1 aren't really cars like the ones we drive on the street, they're more like go-karts. And most go-karts are single speed carts with torque converters, and then there are shift carts that have a multi-speed sequential gearbox. That is just the way they developed.

2. That's just not true, it's that no one builds two speed gearboxes for that level of torque output. Factory EVs use big AC motors and have a flat enough torque curve that they don't need more than one maybe two forward gears. There are one speed gearboxes that can handle the torque, but there isn't a two speed gearbox available. EVs don't need a clutch or torque converter either BTW.

Allen...seriously read what you just wrote, and think more deeply about it. If F1 regulations say that DCT is allowed then it's not cheating it's their standards. It's off topic on the context that they aren't road cars. Even if your argument was for road cars, that's saying every Automatic owner every DCT owner is cheating. I'm sorry we're trying to CHEAT TRAFFIC OMG .It's their choice, there's not against any regulation or any rule set racing organizations to race with a DCT either. If you enter a DCT car into a Manual only series then yes that is cheating. I don't see how having an Automatic/DCT is cheating. If fact like most have admitted it's a smarter choice for a DD. Eventually F1 tech will come down to normal cars anyways.

Second, are you throwing gears and stepping on a clutch for an EV? NO No your not... it's not your traditional manual. There was also nothing in my post that says EV have a DCT or an Automatic. But they don't have your traditional Manual because like you said

"There's no Clutch"
Doesn't matter how many speed, because OMG there's no Clutch. If they make a two speed gearbox and theirs no clutch it's become a sequential manual it's still not a traditional manual.

Not like you heel toe up shift down shift all that stuff you people go on and on about.

Good God, People are just repeating the same thing and same thing over and it's everything we agree on.

Look

Manual is more fun Everyone agree that's nice, yes this car is great with manual.


Auto is a good choice for a DD of people in Heavy traffic Everyone agree. No one like to throw gears in heavy traffic unless they are used to it. I know I've never owned a automatic car ever.

Cheating or not how ever you see it, I see much potential in DCT, and so does the industry and the people of the most hardcore motor sport f1, they took manual out for 20 years already. it's their standard it's not cheating. Like it or not Sequential auto/ DCT is Faster we all agree

Why Doesn't a GTR Have a manual then, Why not the LFA, Why not every freaking Ferrari.

Because They've progressed away, and it's proven to be faster. That is Fact. Like it or not.

and On the opposite end the fact is Manual is more fun.

Leave it at that. Damn I can't believe I have to explain this on 3 different forums and 2 different threads. Just because people aren't willing to accept change. I'm sorry but Manual will die eventually. The Petro Cars will die eventually. Will it be during our generation I don't know. But It will happen.

Goodness

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Zaku

Allen...seriously read what you just wrote, and think more deeply about it. If F1 regulations say that DCT is allowed then it's not cheating it's their standards. It's off topic on the context that they aren't road cars. Even if your argument was for road cars, that's saying every Automatic owner every DCT owner is cheating. I'm sorry we're trying to CHEAT TRAFFIC OMG .It's their choice, there's not against any regulation or any rule set racing organizations to race with a DCT either. If you enter a DCT car into a Manual only series then yes that is cheating. I don't see how having an Automatic/DCT is cheating. If fact like most have admitted it's a smarter choice for a DD. Eventually F1 tech will come down to normal cars anyways.

Second, are you throwing gears and stepping on a clutch for an EV? NO No your not... it's not your traditional manual. There was also nothing in my post that says EV have a DCT or an Automatic. But they don't have your traditional Manual because like you said

"There's no Clutch"
Doesn't matter how many speed, because OMG there's no Clutch. If they make a two speed gearbox and theirs no clutch it's become a sequential manual it's still not a traditional manual.

Not like you heel toe up shift down shift all that stuff you people go on and on about.

Good God, People are just repeating the same thing and same thing over and it's everything we agree on.

Look

Manual is more fun Everyone agree that's nice, yes this car is great with manual.


Auto is a good choice for a DD of people in Heavy traffic Everyone agree. No one like to throw gears in heavy traffic unless they are used to it. I know I've never owned a automatic car ever.

Cheating or not how ever you see it, I see much potential in DCT, and so does the industry and the people of the most hardcore motor sport f1, they took manual out for 20 years already. it's their standard it's not cheating. Like it or not Sequential auto/ DCT is Faster we all agree

Why Doesn't a GTR Have a manual then, Why not the LFA, Why not every freaking Ferrari.

Because They've progressed away, and it's proven to be faster. That is Fact. Like it or not.

and On the opposite end the fact is Manual is more fun.

Leave it at that. Damn I can't believe I have to explain this on 3 different forums and 2 different threads. Just because people aren't willing to accept change. I'm sorry but Manual will die eventually. The Petro Cars will die eventually. Will it be during our generation I don't know. But It will happen.

Goodness

LFA needed a manual for everyday operations, as (I've read) it sucked at slow speed operations.

Ferrari, Lambo and Porsche have offered manuals along side their fancy transmissions.

For the common commuter, you would have thought that the manual would have died a few years after the introduction of the torque converter (like a billion years ago), but it didn't.

There's a lot of life left in the row-your-own. And cost is a significant factor.

[xantonin]

Originally Posted by Zaku

I'm sorry but Manual will die eventually. The Petro Cars will die eventually. Will it be during our generation I don't know. But It will happen.

Yes. Manual will die just like drum brakes and manual crank windows.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by xantonin

Yes. Manual will die just like drum brakes and manual crank windows.

Hahaha. Yeah just like the Reliant Robin was going to do away with 4 wheel cars?

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by old greg

People talk about driver control, but that's not really the right choice of words; It's matter of driver involvement. In a dedicated race/hdpe car, where all that matters is your lap time, driver involvement is bad - it's an unneeded distraction. But there are no lap times on the street, and unless you're a diehard drag racer saving 0.05 seconds per shift is not really all that important. What matters is how much we enjoy the experience of driving. Naturally that's a subjective thing, and what's right for some is not right for others. Some people like to be more involved, to have driving require more of their attention and skill. This does not mean that they need to be in control of every aspect of their car. Some people don't want to be involved, they just want to get from point A to point B with a minimum of effort. Some don't really mind either way.

People who don't like the idea of tiptronic, DSG, or even automated manual transmissions aren't closed minded or technophobic. They just want to be more involved - to have driving fast be a bit of a challenge that rewards a skillful driver. Hating traditional automatic transmissions, however, is about involvement and control. Driving an unpredictable car is not fun.


PS. If it was good enough for Ayrton Senna... :happy0180:

[u2b]-k4pun6j0Fg[/u2b]

Yeah Senna was nasty behind the wheel (good thing). Not sure anyone since him would come close to his level of driving and natural skills. Imagine him behind a current F1 car.

[Zaku]

Lol speaking of which, do the mustangs still have that old horse and cart suspension? Like the GT500 still?

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by Zaku

Allen...seriously read what you just wrote, and think more deeply about it. If F1 regulations say that DCT is allowed then it's not cheating it's their standards. It's off topic on the context that they aren't road cars. Even if your argument was for road cars, that's saying every Automatic owner every DCT owner is cheating. I'm sorry we're trying to CHEAT TRAFFIC OMG .It's their choice, there's not against any regulation or any rule set racing organizations to race with a DCT either. If you enter a DCT car into a Manual only series then yes that is cheating. I don't see how having an Automatic/DCT is cheating. If fact like most have admitted it's a smarter choice for a DD. Eventually F1 tech will come down to normal cars anyways.

Second, are you throwing gears and stepping on a clutch for an EV? NO No your not... it's not your traditional manual. There was also nothing in my post that says EV have a DCT or an Automatic. But they don't have your traditional Manual because like you said

"There's no Clutch"
Doesn't matter how many speed, because OMG there's no Clutch. If they make a two speed gearbox and theirs no clutch it's become a sequential manual it's still not a traditional manual.

Not like you heel toe up shift down shift all that stuff you people go on and on about.

Good God, People are just repeating the same thing and same thing over and it's everything we agree on.

Look

Manual is more fun Everyone agree that's nice, yes this car is great with manual.


Auto is a good choice for a DD of people in Heavy traffic Everyone agree. No one like to throw gears in heavy traffic unless they are used to it. I know I've never owned a automatic car ever.

Cheating or not how ever you see it, I see much potential in DCT, and so does the industry and the people of the most hardcore motor sport f1, they took manual out for 20 years already. it's their standard it's not cheating. Like it or not Sequential auto/ DCT is Faster we all agree

Why Doesn't a GTR Have a manual then, Why not the LFA, Why not every freaking Ferrari.

Because They've progressed away, and it's proven to be faster. That is Fact. Like it or not.

and On the opposite end the fact is Manual is more fun.

Leave it at that. Damn I can't believe I have to explain this on 3 different forums and 2 different threads. Just because people aren't willing to accept change. I'm sorry but Manual will die eventually. The Petro Cars will die eventually. Will it be during our generation I don't know. But It will happen.

Goodness

lol, you're raging now Zaku. Relax.

1. I wasn't talking about gearboxes when I said cheating is cheating. That would be silly. DCT have clutches not torque converters anyway.

2. You still don't understand what a manual transmission is truely. Many people only consider it a manual when it has a clutch with a pedal, I don't :P. eg, "If it doesn't have a clutch or a torque converter what is it!? zom!"

3. Allen? You don't remember who I am after arguing with me at least 3 times before?

[Zaku]

1. Allen, You suck stop arguing with me I don't want a 4th. So annoying
It's not Cheating if it's allowed.

2. Of course I'm raging, Seeing as I'm the only one discussing for the other side.

3. What you consider doesn't fall in line with our argument because I'm using worldly facts and figures and not my own opinion.

4. I do recognize you and respect you to some degree. There for awesome. Nothing wrong with anyway you think.

5. Touche we're ending it here. Stop Now!

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by Zaku

1. Allen, You suck stop arguing with me I don't want a 4th. So annoying
It's not Cheating if it's allowed.

2. Of course I'm raging, Seeing as I'm the only one discussing for the other side.

3. What you consider doesn't fall in line with our argument because I'm using worldly facts and figures and not my own opinion.

4. I do recognize you and respect you to some degree. There for awesome. Nothing wrong with anyway you think.

5. Touche we're ending it here. Stop Now!

Then it's not called cheating is it?

Facts on paper don't always equal facts in real life. To understand the true spirit of driving enjoyment you need to be connected to the car. You need to be involved in it's operation and it's movement. That's what is important to enjoying driving not some "progress", techy gimmick, or driver aid. In most cases the faster you go the less involved you become as you trade speed for caring, and time for timelessness. Trade a long straightaway or a continuous course for tepid roads with curves that change direction like a flowing river.

[Zaku]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

Then it's not called cheating is it?

Facts on paper don't always equal facts in real life. To understand the true spirit of driving enjoyment you need to be connected to the car. You need to be involved in it's operation and it's movement. That's what is important to enjoying driving not some "progress", techy gimmick, or driver aid. In most cases the faster you go the less involved you become as you trade speed for caring, and time for timelessness. Trade a long straightaway or a continuous course for tepid roads with curves that change direction like a flowing river.

I'm sure the guy with the horse said the similar stuff to the guy with the car allen. Like 100years ago. You can keep talking about feel and involvement all you want. Progress is progress you cant stop it. I can go on about it too. But in the end there is no true correct way. Were both right to different degree but our arguments are like engineers/physicist and mathematicians. No end results they are both right.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by Zaku

I'm sure the guy with the horse said the similar stuff to the guy with the car allen. Like 100years ago. You can keep talking about feel and involvement all you want. Progress is progress you cant stop it. I can go on about it too. But in the end there is no true correct way. Were both right to different degree but our arguments are like engineers/physicist and mathematicians. No end results they are both right.

Certainly, just don't forget that the horse and buggy is still in use. Both for pleasure riding and by those who refuse to use certain new technology :P!

[xantonin]

Come on now. This is a forum, we're meant to have discussions here. Even if they have been repeated.

That said, I want to re-iterate the fun and skill factor. Tuned automatics are certainly better than humans at the drag strip. But if you took 10 random people and had them all do drag races in the same car, how much of a difference would they all have?

To exclude launching, assume they all did 30-120 MPH. Would there even be a difference? After all, they are just flooring it and holding the wheel straight.



Now take a manual car. Surely the driver with the best time is very skilled at shifting. He may not beat the automatic, but I can guarantee you two things: 1. He had more fun. 2. He displayed more talent.

And I second the notion of man-machine connection. There's something about driving a car for a while and having its clutch pressure, travel distance, engagement and friction zone, all connected to you by muscle memory, which is special in a really cheesy sort of way.

[Fortunate Few]

i messed up an bought a paddle shifter rx8. 6MT FTW

[lsxiong]

A paddle is for rowing boat, clutch pedal and stick shift for me.