New ICE Vehicles Banned in California by 2035

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Yeah, I know the range extending motor doesn't power the wheels. I just don't see it being enough when they are doing as I described and the distance they are driving is on the limit of what EV trucks can tow on flat ground with a light load.

As I said, I am not talking 96% of truck owners. I am talking about guys who actually have to drive a 1 ton diesel because they are building 6 houses at a given time and moving equipment around that with the trailer, is pushing 10K. Adding batteries to every trailer they have to extend range is not really that cost effective. Between the 4 of them I know that regularly work together, we are talking like 8 different trailers. Tongue weight is also as important when talking trailer weights as gross weight. You have to keep that in mind. I'd be more effective as a whole if we just had the infrastructure to support the use then try to bandaid EV vehicles and make them more costly and heavy.

Just so we are clear, you aren’t even talking about 4% of users. You are talking fractions of a percent of truck drivers.

Long term solutions need to be invented like I suggested or pay premiums for e-fuels. On a long enough timeline, there is no other choice.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Just so we are clear, you aren’t even talking about 4% of users. You are talking fractions of a percent of truck drivers.

Long term solutions need to be invented like I suggested or pay premiums for e-fuels. On a long enough timeline, there is no other choice.

Yes, some of the more necessary fractions of a percent of truck drivers that actually use their vehicle to its fullest capacity regularly and not just to tow an RV a couple times a year.

I'm not saying we don't wait for more solutions I am just saying currently there is not enough infrastructure to support more adoption among people who actually need these larger vehicles can't use them unless they have multiple vehicles for different use.

[Lantanafrs2]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Yes, some of the more necessary fractions of a percent of truck drivers that actually use their vehicle to its fullest capacity regularly and not just to tow an RV a couple times a year.

I'm not saying we don't wait for more solutions I am just saying currently there is not enough infrastructure to support more adoption among people who actually need these larger vehicles can't use them unless they have multiple vehicles for different use.

The goal for schwab, Trudeau, and progressives in this country is to get us to submit to the idea even though the infrastructure is lacking. The shills are getting pushback, which must be frustrating but they'll come up with new statistics to support their agenda.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Yes, some of the more necessary fractions of a percent of truck drivers that actually use their vehicle to its fullest capacity regularly and not just to tow an RV a couple times a year.

I'm not saying we don't wait for more solutions I am just saying currently there is not enough infrastructure to support more adoption among people who actually need these larger vehicles can't use them unless they have multiple vehicles for different use.

Infrastructure will support the 99% before the 1%. It is like cellular service providers; there we be a few off grid without coverage, but 99% will be in coverage. There will likely be options for those using legacy vehicles.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

The goal for schwab, Trudeau, and progressives in this country is to get us to submit to the idea even though the infrastructure is lacking. The shills are getting pushback, which must be frustrating but they'll come up with new statistics to support their agenda.

It is a supply and demand issue. They don’t have the demand to invest in infrastructure. Infrastructure is needed to create demand. It needs to happen in unison. As grid demand goes up, more solar and wind and charging infrastructure will come online. It is more expensive to have power stations just idling. Infrastructure should just trail demand.

Adding wind and solar and batteries to the grid is cheaper and faster than in the past with coal and nuclear, and we have added capacity faster in the past, so we have the ability. Only 6% of cars are new cars, so we would need to grow the grid by fractions per year.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Infrastructure will support the 99% before the 1%. It is like cellular service providers; there we be a few off grid without coverage, but 99% will be in coverage. There will likely be options for those using legacy vehicles.

I know that I don't wholly agree with it either but it is what it is.

My recent participation in this conversation comes from Dadhawk saying the current generation of EV trucks don't help much for people that actually use their trucks as trucks. I pointed out a use case that supports this statement.

[Lantanafrs2]

Told ya

[Lantanafrs2]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bid...nergy-security

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

They will need to buy what is available..

That's a long way off in the real world where work gets done and loads get hauled. Maybe solid state will save it, but it aint there now, that's all I'm saying.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Most tow trips are not long trips, and most things people tow like a jet ski or small trailer could be towed with a much smaller vehicle. Most 4 cylinder vehicles have enough torque and the payloads of most vehicles can handle plenty of weight. Most trucks use 2WD for the vast majority of time on road or during towing, as driving with 4WD on dry pavement is bad. Despite the rare need for 4WD or AWD, it has moved up in popularity due to its perceived necessity, safety and performance, but it is way overplayed.

Admittedly I can’t seem to find the article I read in the past talking about most people who tow do so with light loads for short distances like to a local lake to fish or ski, or for carrying landscaping equipment to work, or small loads to tge local dump. Long distance towing was far less common. Most don’t own a big enough boat or trailer to exceed the needs of a light duty truck or even of many small CUVs.Most tow trips are not long trips, and most things people tow like a jet ski or small trailer could be towed with a much smaller vehicle. Most 4 cylinder vehicles have enough torque and the payloads of most vehicles can handle plenty of weight. Most trucks use 2WD for the vast majority of time on road or during towing, as driving with 4WD on dry pavement is bad. Despite the rare need for 4WD or AWD, it has moved up in popularity due to its perceived necessity, safety and performance, but it is way overplayed.

Admittedly I can’t seem to find the article I read in the past talking about most people who tow do so with light loads for short distances like to a local lake to fish or ski, or for carrying landscaping equipment to work, or small loads to tge local dump. Long distance towing was far less common. Most don’t own a big enough boat or trailer to exceed the needs of a light duty truck or even of many small CUVs.

i've said this before, but it bears repeating. you are in a drastically different climate/area, with a very different friend group, and a hobbies/needs. 3 of my co-workers tow 5th wheels almost every weekend for events. one is a tractor pull guy, one has kids and goes camping or sports events, and one is really into drag racing his firebird. all of them talk about going to events well over 4 hours away all the time.

if i expand outside work, i'm one of the few people i know that have a truck and doesn't have a trailer to use, most get used every couple weeks, if not more often.

i've actually used the truck less after changing jobs recently then i have in the past 5 years. normally, i had a use for the bed that any van/hatchback/wagon couldn't fill at least every other weekend.




because you don't appear to be aware of towing standards, look up the requirements of SAE J2807.

that standard was created about 10 years ago, and upended the industry at the time. before that, an oldmobile delta 88 easily towed a 2,000 pound boat--my parents did it in the 90's. legally.

but a 4 cylinder-equipped vehicle would absolutely not meet most current towing safety standards for a 2" hitch/tongue load rating.

the main issue here is the global transition from body-on-frame vehicle construction to unibody construction. unibodies can be setup to tow, but it takes effort that most OEM's aren't willing to spend the resources on.

but you're also in an area where you can literally hop skip and jump to all sorts of amazing destinations. the midwest is absolutely nothing like that. normal vacations are 2-4 hours of driving bare minimum for any power sports. i know plenty of people that make the 6-8 hour drive up to the northern parts of michigan/wisconsin for winter trips every year, sometimes up to 4 times a year, towing snow mobiles and other power sports stuff. there is zero charging network up there.

my brothers boat, we normally would drive about 1-4 hours minimum to use it.

:
The automotive business intelligence company says that “50.8% of new vehicles sold in the 2020 model year have been equipped with four-wheel drive. If trends hold, four-wheel drive will represent more than 50% of the market for the first time ever.” This means that two-wheel drive in the guise of front- and rear-wheel drive make up 49.2 percent of sales so far, which is an outstanding statistic by all accounts[1]

.

this link/quote is really screwed up. awd, and 4x4 are 2 very different systems. most awd systems are fwd-biased with an open-diff to the rear, with a 10-40% torque split. it's minimal mechanical alterations for a significant profit boost to the companies on a pre-existing platform.

but awd is NOT 4x4.

:
The fact that they skew far more male—87% versus an industry average of 57%[2]

a truck is a tool. guy's tend to buy more tools than girls. it's why i got one. i don't know how to explain this any differently.

:
According to Edwards’ data, 75 percent of truck owners use their truck for towing one time a year or less (meaning, never). Nearly 70 percent of truck owners go off-road one time a year or less. And a full 35 percent of truck owners use their truck for hauling—putting something in the bed, its ostensible raison d’être—once a year or less [2].

important to note here who they're interviewing. new trucks are skewing close to $100k. anyone that can afford $100k trucks can easily afford to hire a contractor to do the work for them. but because they're $100k, they've also become status symbols as well. this article clearly omits the cost aspect of the new trucks and averages the response to the entire pickup truck market without acknowledging how the truck has swung into a different market category.

interviewing the 5+ year old truck market would likely alter those statistics quite drastically.

the people i know with 1-2 year old trucks don't normally know which end of a hammer to hold, or even own a pair of blue jeans-- they'd rather pay someone else to swing it. but the people with 5-10 year old trucks, i know plenty that spend their weekends helping their family move, do landscaping, side jobs, or honey-do projects, all of which require material that won't fit within the confines of a sedan.

i don't tow because i simply don't have the need at the moment. i don't offroad, specifically because i live in a concrete jungle. the nearest offroad park is 2 hours away, but i also have no interest in beating on my truck in that manner. but i do use the bed at bare minimum of 5 times a month for things that would require a large van, or a trailer to carry in any other scenario.

:
“When asked for attributes that are important to them,” Edwards says, “truck owners oversample in ones like: the ability to outperform others, to look good while driving, to present a tough image, to have their car act as extension of their personality, and to stand out in a crowd.” Trucks deliver on all of that. At a price [2]

.
again, the upmarket move is altering that.

i genuinely don't care what other people think about my vehicle purchase. i've said before, my brz stays in my stable because it brings me enjoyment to drive. my truck stays in my stable because it's functional. it's a tool. i don't need it to outperform, i just need it to perform. i actually despise the 'tough' aspect. it leads to a high hood-line that obstructs the road. road tires are fine, i hate the as-equipped mud terrains that are on my truck currently. if it's part of my personality, it's the functional part. but the brz is really a much better extension of my personality than the truck ever is.

:
“Chevrolet is confident these engines meet or exceed most trailering needs, as 96 percent of light-duty pickup owners tow less than 10,000 pounds, according to data from MaritzCX an InMoment Company,” the automaker states [3].

[/QUOTE]

just because they tow less than the maximum doesn't mean that something like a rogue hill isn't going to be a problem.

my dad's old boss tried saving money once and bought him a v6 service van instead of the v8. "i'll save a ton on gas". but he could barely merge onto the highway, struggled to get it up the 2' tall hill into our driveway, and the rear springs were easily overloaded by the time he got all his gear and materials loaded onto it. his boss later admitted it was one of his bigger mistakes, as the van needed to be goosed everywhere just to get it to move, and resulted in extra gas costs...

these high strung 4 cylinders might be the future, but nothing comes for free, and the extra stress from the turbo is something i feel i need to see be ran for a few years before i believe there's any real cost savings to be had in fuel or maintenance costs.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by soundman98

lots of writing .

Unfortunately manufacturers don’t care much about satisfying the needs of the secondary market. The primary market statistics show that trucks aren’t needed for the masses for daily commuting. Manufacturers will do just fine selling EV trucks to the masses of primary buyers without it affecting their bottom line much.

Secondary owners will need to figure themselves out or the market will deliver solutions in time. There is decades to figure these things out for late adopters.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Unfortunately manufacturers don’t care much about satisfying the needs of the secondary market. The primary market statistics show that trucks aren’t needed for the masses for daily commuting. Manufacturers will do just fine selling EV trucks to the masses of primary buyers without it affecting their bottom line much.

Secondary owners will need to figure themselves out or the market will deliver solutions in time. There is decades to figure these things out for late adopters.

I think you are misreading that. Just because a truck is 4 or 5 years old does not mean it was purchased on the secondary market. Truck owners that use their trucks also buy them new, but they keep them longer because it's a tool and not a status symbol. As long as it is working and reliable they tend to keep them in my experience.

It is also likely they did not buy the top of the line trim, but somewhere in the middle.

[new2subaru]

I think there's a lot of assumptions that if a truck is rolling down the road empty it's not being used for it's intended purpose. I also think that is bull.

I have a commercial truck that I use daily (without a company logo) and it is likely empty 80% of the time. BUT, I've been hauling machines back and forth to a different location for a couple of weeks now and have been hauling machines to jobsites. They're tools and don't get any worse mileage than most SUV's. Who cares if someone wants to drive one a a pleasure vehicle.
I don't think everyone should be required to drive a rollerskate.

Stop buying shit and watch the trucks come to a crawl. Transport is a dirty industry. There's more than one way to skin a cat. We're high consumers.

Windfarms a a f'ing eyesore. They destroy the landscape. We have a lot in SW Ontario.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I think you are misreading that. Just because a truck is 4 or 5 years old does not mean it was purchased on the secondary market. Truck owners that use their trucks also buy them new, but they keep them longer because it's a tool and not a status symbol. As long as it is working and reliable they tend to keep them in my experience.

It is also likely they did not buy the top of the line trim, but somewhere in the middle.

His assumption was that I’m going off my personal experience in my areas, but I’m going off the statistics I quoted. Then he tried to counter those statistics, even though he said I was going off my personal experience, saying primary buyers are different in their use of trucks than secondary buyers (suggesting secondary buyers use trucks as tools more), which the surveys don’t capture, for which I countered that secondary buyers are not what manufacturers care about, so they will be fine selling EV trucks to the masses who will buy EV trucks for the looks and perceived utility over the true utility, and those EV trucks will meet their needs for 99% or more of the time for 99% or more of the buyers. What am I missing?