KPower Industries K24 swap

[spcmafia]

This thread is possibly one of the best out there as far as E/S goes. But I do have one question. Granted, K-Power provides with absolutely everything you'll need to make the swap somewhat easy if you're mechanically inclined. So let's say you go full send and buy the complete kit for 10K+. Get yourself a K24a for around $2K, get a tune. All in all you'll be looking at maybe 15K maybe?

You save about 100LB in weight, and a more power-friendly engine. How would a K-Swap be any different or unique compared to swapping it with say, a LS engine or any other option out there. Or spending the money towards an IAG block and upgrading some components here and there on a FA20.

I am asking because it would be fun, down the road, to experiment with the BRZ after I make it my weekend/show car. I highly doubt the boss lady will be thrilled about using it to take the eventual kids to events and what not.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by captain awesome

That's why I settled on the complete kit. CAI, Whiteline trans insert, thermostat inlet plug, accessory belt, and who knows what else. None of that adds up to a lot of dough, but if you were trying to get the complete kit piece meal you are kinda screwed.

Well, the Whiteline insert I already have, but that is included in the trans mounts either way. The accessories belt is included in the AC kit either way. The plug can be bought below, but yes, that and the CAI. I won’t need the CAI or the exhaust components.

https://www.hybrid-racing.com/produc...ug-and-bracket

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by spcmafia

This thread is possibly one of the best out there as far as E/S goes. But I do have one question. Granted, K-Power provides with absolutely everything you'll need to make the swap somewhat easy if you're mechanically inclined. So let's say you go full send and buy the complete kit for 10K+. Get yourself a K24a for around $2K, get a tune. All in all you'll be looking at maybe 15K maybe?

You save about 100LB in weight, and a more power-friendly engine. How would a K-Swap be any different or unique compared to swapping it with say, a LS engine or any other option out there. Or spending the money towards an IAG block and upgrading some components here and there on a FA20.

I am asking because it would be fun, down the road, to experiment with the BRZ after I make it my weekend/show car. I highly doubt the boss lady will be thrilled about using it to take the eventual kids to events and what not.

You can get used K24’s for about 1k. The one thing the kit doesn’t provide that you will want is a type S oil pump.

Over the LS you are getting a lighter engine, with better packaging.

Over building an FA you are getting an engine that is cheaper, cheaper to build, and will take more power NA or FI. On top of the fact that it is worlds easier to work on and modify. And they are more reliable.

[ML]

Originally Posted by spcmafia

This thread is possibly one of the best out there as far as E/S goes. But I do have one question. Granted, K-Power provides with absolutely everything you'll need to make the swap somewhat easy if you're mechanically inclined. So let's say you go full send and buy the complete kit for 10K+. Get yourself a K24a for around $2K, get a tune. All in all you'll be looking at maybe 15K maybe?

You save about 100LB in weight, and a more power-friendly engine. How would a K-Swap be any different or unique compared to swapping it with say, a LS engine or any other option out there. Or spending the money towards an IAG block and upgrading some components here and there on a FA20.

I am asking because it would be fun, down the road, to experiment with the BRZ after I make it my weekend/show car. I highly doubt the boss lady will be thrilled about using it to take the eventual kids to events and what not.

two things the k has over the FA that don't include power.

1. its cheap, i got my complete motor for 1000$ so if I blow another its just a 1000$. So after I invest in the swap kit rather than a 5k$ IAG motor I will only spend 1000 on another motor rather than another 5k.

2. transmission options. FAs if you want a better trans your main option isa cd0009 swap or get something custom. With the k there are dozens of trans options already on the market.

also versus a LS, yeah they make more power, but they are also more expensive, heavier, and more complicated swap from my understanding. So unless you need more than 500 HP i don't really see it being a good option (at least in my application).


really the main advantage of this swap has nothing to do with power or weight anything like that....look deeper...this swap will make the viability of this platfrom last way into the future, and keep the 1st gen 86 relevant for a long time.

[captain awesome]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Well, the Whiteline insert I already have, but that is included in the trans mounts either way. The accessories belt is included in the AC kit either way. The plug can be bought below, but yes, that and the CAI. I won’t need the CAI or the exhaust components.

https://www.hybrid-racing.com/produc...ug-and-bracket

Good points. I don't know why I care about the belt anyway. I went through the swap instructions for both the e30 and Miata kits and ordered the associated Honda/Acura parts a week or two ago. At least I'll have a spare? I also didn't notice the Whiteline insert was included with the trans mount bracket.

[ML]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Well, the Whiteline insert I already have, but that is included in the trans mounts either way. The accessories belt is included in the AC kit either way. The plug can be bought below, but yes, that and the CAI. I won’t need the CAI or the exhaust components.

https://www.hybrid-racing.com/produc...ug-and-bracket

you don't need that as from kpower "If using a K24A2 style head, the head plug is not needed. Just use the 1/2" NPT plug that comes with our K24 Upper Water Neck. " we are getting the upper water neck with the kit.

https://kpower.industries/collection...r-coolant-neck

https://kpower.industries/collection...ter-delete-kit

[spcmafia]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

You can get used K24’s for about 1k. The one thing the kit doesn’t provide that you will want is a type S oil pump.

Over the LS you are getting a lighter engine, with better packaging.

Over building an FA you are getting an engine that is cheaper, cheaper to build, and will take more power NA or FI. On top of the fact that it is worlds easier to work on and modify. And they are more reliable.

Originally Posted by ML

two things the k has over the FA that don't include power.

1. its cheap, i got my complete motor for 1000$ so if I blow another its just a 1000$. So after I invest in the swap kit rather than a 5k$ IAG motor I will only spend 1000 on another motor rather than another 5k.

2. transmission options. FAs if you want a better trans your main option isa cd0009 swap or get something custom. With the k there are dozens of trans options already on the market.

also versus a LS, yeah they make more power, but they are also more expensive, heavier, and more complicated swap from my understanding. So unless you need more than 500 HP i don't really see it being a good option (at least in my application).


really the main advantage of this swap has nothing to do with power or weight anything like that....look deeper...this swap will make the viability of this platfrom last way into the future, and keep the 1st gen 86 relevant for a long time.

Thank you both for the info. So to sort of summarize, the cost of the kit is mostly about the convenience factor of making the swap a plug-and play type of swap. Which in result, down the road, leaves you with a more reliable, lighter, and easier engine to work with compared to swapping the engine with a V8/I-6 or re-enforcing the FA.

I would agree that having the opportunity to keep the 1st Gen relevant is definitely something to look at.



Another question, how does an engine swap work in terms of emissions and what not.

[ML]

Originally Posted by spcmafia

Thank you both for the info. So to sort of summarize, the cost of the kit is mostly about the convenience factor of making the swap a plug-and play type of swap. Which in result, down the road, leaves you with a more reliable, lighter, and easier engine to work with compared to swapping the engine with a V8/I-6 or re-enforcing the FA.

I would agree that having the opportunity to keep the 1st Gen relevant is definitely something to look at.



Another question, how does an engine swap work in terms of emissions and what not.

Completely dependent on where your car is registered.

[captain awesome]

Originally Posted by ML

you don't need that as from kpower "If using a K24A2 style head, the head plug is not needed. Just use the 1/2" NPT plug that comes with our K24 Upper Water Neck. " we are getting the upper water neck with the kit.

https://kpower.industries/collection...r-coolant-neck

https://kpower.industries/collection...ter-delete-kit

The plug he’s talking about is to plug the neck of the water thermostat housing pipe that usually runs a hardline to the back of the head.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by spcmafia

This thread is possibly one of the best out there as far as E/S goes. But I do have one question. Granted, K-Power provides with absolutely everything you'll need to make the swap somewhat easy if you're mechanically inclined. So let's say you go full send and buy the complete kit for 10K+. Get yourself a K24a for around $2K, get a tune. All in all you'll be looking at maybe 15K maybe?

You save about 100LB in weight, and a more power-friendly engine. How would a K-Swap be any different or unique compared to swapping it with say, a LS engine or any other option out there. Or spending the money towards an IAG block and upgrading some components here and there on a FA20.

I am asking because it would be fun, down the road, to experiment with the BRZ after I make it my weekend/show car. I highly doubt the boss lady will be thrilled about using it to take the eventual kids to events and what not.

If you want to do an all motor build to the max with the lightest engine then this is the way to go. If you want to add displacement and cheap NA power then LS is the way to go because out the box it will have lots of NA power, but the K24 can be built relatively cheap. If you follow Gears and Gasoline Youtube, his Kswaped Civic is putting down around 245-265whp in a light chassis and winning his class. An iron block LS can be cheap, but an LS1/LS3/LT1/etc are typically more expensive. Like NoHaveMSG said, a K24A2 is typically around $800, and a K24 from a CRV with less compression is even cheaper like $200-400, which would be fine if someone wanted to do a reliable and cheap FI build. This is a huge benefit for anyone wanting to track the car who may be going through engines. K24s are everywhere, and they are cheap. They were found in the CRV, Civic, Accord, Element, Odyssey, Acura TSX/TLX/ILX, and while this kit is focused on the K24A2, if someone was just doing a track car then any would work with some customization.

Now, if anyone blows and engine or has a chassis missing an engine, and they think they want to add some reliability, then they would need an FA20, which is usually around $3500-$4500, but they do sometimes pop up here from time to time for $2500 (don't forget shipping costs most likely too), and then they would need a built block from IAG. If they have a good engine then they can build that themselves, but most people have someone else assemble their motor after getting an IAG block, so $4k+ for an IAG block, plus the cost of shipping and plus the cost of having an engine assembler put the long block together or the whole engine together. You can then sell your shortblock for a grand. At this point, you might be in it for $6-10k depending on if you started with a good motor or not. Reliability wise, the IAG block has the strength to take more power than a stock K24A2, but I really don't know if it is more reliable at less power like lets say 350whp. The pistons and rods will take it, but will the oiling and other systems be just as reliable? That is the question, but if the engine does go, that built FA20 is now another $8k to replace, but the K24 is $800. The other thing about the IAG blocks is they hone the cylinders just ever so slightly, which removes part of the thickness of the liners, so I don't now how that works (read the link below):

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...31&postcount=6

Both of these motors will be limited by the transmission. A K24 will manage 450whp like the stock FA20 can handle 350whp, but probably more reliable than the FA20 still. Regardless, 400whp is about the limit on this transmission for daily driving and less for the track, so the extra potential of the IAG block isn't really gained unless a transmission swap.

The K24 is far superior in NA aftermarket support and power potential over the FA20. Changing cams, servicing the spark plugs or checking the spark plugs, evaluating for header leaks, swapping head gaskets, or even building the blocks at home is all far, far easier on the K24. The FI potential on the K24 is much better. Add ARP head studs, pistons, rods, king bearings and the short block will do 700whp+ without having to do sleeves or a closed deck, but a sleeved K24 will do 1000whp with a K20A head and some supportive head work like a port n polish, Ferrara titanium valves and springs and some big cams, and it will rev out despite the longer stroke.

We will have to see how the new FA24 compares, as the NA differences improve for the FA platform, and the shorter stroke may allow builds to rev decently. The GR86 is a cheaper platform for NA power than this swap, but still, a FA24 would sell well on the market, and a K swap would still make sense for some people at the track.

For the street, there is also the cool factor and putting a personal touch on the car. I like the sound and dynamics of the low FA20, so it never bothered me, but I prefer a compact inline engine for servicing and layout.

I'll say a LS engine would be cool too, but I hear they don't do well on the track for oiling reasons, and this is true of the dry sump versions maybe even more or too. You can get a LS and T56 from a Camaro as one whole unit without needing adapter plates or anything, but they are typically around $10k and would still require supporting swap parts like mounts and electronics for CANBUS/standalone. Then there is a mild weight penalty over a FA20, and it would probably be 200lbs over the K24, transmission included, but there would be a stout engine, tranny and more NA power too. Servicing wouldn't be bad, but adding FI to the equation would be harder, as room is very tight. I don't know if pulling the motor is required to remove the headers or anything, for instance.

If you do this swap and buy the $10k kit, you will still need a K24A2 for a grand, an RSX Type S oil pump for $350, an EP3 idler pulley for $100-200 if you want to run AC, coolant hoses, misc gaskets and other OEM refreshed parts, and a custom tune. I don't know if their tune just gets someone down the road to the tuner or what it does, as a base tune. It might just configure everything for the TB and sensors and stuff.

The LS to CD009 or T56 will probably set someone back more money up front, and the engine will be expensive to replace if it goes. I don't know how the gearing works out, but a final drive swap is probably necessary. Someone can go custom, but I believe most use the Motec M1 from Pure Automotive's kit, which is much more expensive, and I believe the motor/tranny and kit will probably add up to $20-30k depending on what you get the engine and transmission for. I know Pure says a turn key install from them is $35-45k. You need M1 ECU, wiring harness, tune, engine mounts, transmission mounts, maybe a shifter relocation kit, custom headers, custom exhaust, custom driveshaft, fueling, misc pipes and stuff, and I don't see anything available on Pure's site anymore, so Vorshlag is a source, but I don't think you will find such a complete kit on the LS side of things like this.

Unless someone is wanting to be different, doing this swap for NA street driving with a mild build, assuming someone has a good FA20 motor, is just not economical. For track builds, depending on the expendables and the class requirements, this build can make a lot of sense. For high powered NA builds, this is almost a necessity, and still be so with the GR86. There are off the shelf 400-460+whp NA builds for the K24 for $13k+ (see 4 Piston), but you just won't find that on the FA platforms. Those builds could be done, but they just aren't prevalent or as easy on the FA20, so for those people, this swap makes sense. For mild FI builds sub 300whp, just add FI to the FA20. For mild FI builds on the track, or for FI builds in excess of 350whp, this starts to look better.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by spcmafia

Another question, how does an engine swap work in terms of emissions and what not.

I'm dirty. I am in Cali, but the car is registered in an exempt area, so it shouldn't matter. If that should change in the future then there are other solutions or make the car a track only car.

I will have a Berk high flow cat in my frontpipe, and I will be on E85, which can also lower emissions a little.

[spcmafia]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

If you want to do an all motor build to the max with the lightest engine then this is the way to go. If you want to add displacement and cheap NA power then LS is the way to go because out the box it will have lots of NA power, but the K24 can be built relatively cheap. If you follow Gears and Gasoline Youtube, his Kswaped Civic is putting down around 245-265whp in a light chassis and winning his class. An iron block LS can be cheap, but an LS1/LS3/LT1/etc are typically more expensive. Like NoHaveMSG said, a K24A2 is typically around $800, and a K24 from a CRV with less compression is even cheaper like $200-400, which would be fine if someone wanted to do a reliable and cheap FI build. This is a huge benefit for anyone wanting to track the car who may be going through engines. K24s are everywhere, and they are cheap. They were found in the CRV, Civic, Accord, Element, Odyssey, Acura TSX/TLX/ILX, and while this kit is focused on the K24A2, if someone was just doing a track car then any would work with some customization.

Now, if anyone blows and engine or has a chassis missing an engine, and they think they want to add some reliability, then they would need an FA20, which is usually around $3500-$4500, but they do sometimes pop up here from time to time for $2500 (don't forget shipping costs most likely too), and then they would need a built block from IAG. If they have a good engine then they can build that themselves, but most people have someone else assemble their motor after getting an IAG block, so $4k+ for an IAG block, plus the cost of shipping and plus the cost of having an engine assembler put the long block together or the whole engine together. You can then sell your shortblock for a grand. At this point, you might be in it for $6-10k depending on if you started with a good motor or not. Reliability wise, the IAG block has the strength to take more power than a stock K24A2, but I really don't know if it is more reliable at less power like lets say 350whp. The pistons and rods will take it, but will the oiling and other systems be just as reliable? That is the question, but if the engine does go, that built FA20 is now another $8k to replace, but the K24 is $800. The other thing about the IAG blocks is they hone the cylinders just ever so slightly, which removes part of the thickness of the liners, so I don't now how that works (read the link below):

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...31&postcount=6

Both of these motors will be limited by the transmission. A K24 will manage 450whp like the stock FA20 can handle 350whp, but probably more reliable than the FA20 still. Regardless, 400whp is about the limit on this transmission for daily driving and less for the track, so the extra potential of the IAG block isn't really gained unless a transmission swap.

The K24 is far superior in NA aftermarket support and power potential over the FA20. Changing cams, servicing the spark plugs or checking the spark plugs, evaluating for header leaks, swapping head gaskets, or even building the blocks at home is all far, far easier on the K24. The FI potential on the K24 is much better. Add ARP head studs, pistons, rods, king bearings and the short block will do 700whp+ without having to do sleeves or a closed deck, but a sleeved K24 will do 1000whp with a K20A head and some supportive head work like a port n polish, Ferrara titanium valves and springs and some big cams, and it will rev out despite the longer stroke.

We will have to see how the new FA24 compares, as the NA differences improve for the FA platform, and the shorter stroke may allow builds to rev decently. The GR86 is a cheaper platform for NA power than this swap, but still, a FA24 would sell well on the market, and a K swap would still make sense for some people at the track.

For the street, there is also the cool factor and putting a personal touch on the car. I like the sound and dynamics of the low FA20, so it never bothered me, but I prefer a compact inline engine for servicing and layout.

I'll say a LS engine would be cool too, but I hear they don't do well on the track for oiling reasons, and this is true of the dry sump versions maybe even more or too. You can get a LS and T56 from a Camaro as one whole unit without needing adapter plates or anything, but they are typically around $10k and would still require supporting swap parts like mounts and electronics for CANBUS/standalone. Then there is a mild weight penalty over a FA20, and it would probably be 200lbs over the K24, transmission included, but there would be a stout engine, tranny and more NA power too. Servicing wouldn't be bad, but adding FI to the equation would be harder, as room is very tight. I don't know if pulling the motor is required to remove the headers or anything, for instance.

If you do this swap and buy the $10k kit, you will still need a K24A2 for a grand, an RSX Type S oil pump for $350, an EP3 idler pulley for $100-200 if you want to run AC, coolant hoses, misc gaskets and other OEM refreshed parts, and a custom tune. I don't know if their tune just gets someone down the road to the tuner or what it does, as a base tune. It might just configure everything for the TB and sensors and stuff.

The LS to CD009 or T56 will probably set someone back more money up front, and the engine will be expensive to replace if it goes. I don't know how the gearing works out, but a final drive swap is probably necessary. Someone can go custom, but I believe most use the Motec M1 from Pure Automotive's kit, which is much more expensive, and I believe the motor/tranny and kit will probably add up to $20-30k depending on what you get the engine and transmission for. I know Pure says a turn key install from them is $35-45k. You need M1 ECU, wiring harness, tune, engine mounts, transmission mounts, maybe a shifter relocation kit, custom headers, custom exhaust, custom driveshaft, fueling, misc pipes and stuff, and I don't see anything available on Pure's site anymore, so Vorshlag is a source, but I don't think you will find such a complete kit on the LS side of things like this.

Unless someone is wanting to be different, doing this swap for NA street driving with a mild build, assuming someone has a good FA20 motor, is just not economical. For track builds, depending on the expendables and the class requirements, this build can make a lot of sense. For high powered NA builds, this is almost a necessity, and still be so with the GR86. There are off the shelf 400-460+whp NA builds for the K24 for $13k+ (see 4 Piston), but you just won't find that on the FA platforms. Those builds could be done, but they just aren't prevalent or as easy on the FA20, so for those people, this swap makes sense. For mild FI builds sub 300whp, just add FI to the FA20. For mild FI builds on the track, or for FI builds in excess of 350whp, this starts to look better.

That is top class information. Truly. Is truly something to look at in the future. Not sure if I should save for a K-Swap or just a JRSC for the FA. I'm not overly ambitious as far as power goes, I would be more than happy with 250WHP.

The more I read your response the more pumped I get about considering a K-swap. Of course is easier said than done with most major projects and being a mechanical noob, but is great to know that there are people out there like yourself that document tons of information with a great level of expertise for people like me that aspire to embark in the same journey that you are in.

Godspeed man.

[spcmafia]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I'm dirty. I am in Cali, but the car is registered in an exempt area, so it shouldn't matter. If that should change in the future then there are other solutions or make the car a track only car.

I will have a Berk high flow cat in my frontpipe, and I will be on E85, which can also lower emissions a little.

Im in CT, from what I understand, you can use the twins exhaust parts starting from the overpipe? So I high low cat on the FP and you would be Okay, or would there be any catted headers down the line.

[BrahmaBull1990]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Unless someone is wanting to be different, doing this swap for NA street driving with a mild build, assuming someone has a good FA20 motor, is just not economical. For track builds, depending on the expendables and the class requirements, this build can make a lot of sense. For high powered NA builds, this is almost a necessity, and still be so with the GR86. There are off the shelf 400-460+whp NA builds for the K24 for $13k+ (see 4 Piston), but you just won't find that on the FA platforms. Those builds could be done, but they just aren't prevalent or as easy on the FA20, so for those people, this swap makes sense. For mild FI builds sub 300whp, just add FI to the FA20. For mild FI builds on the track, or for FI builds in excess of 350whp, this starts to look better.

GREAT write-up.

And there it is! I am just trying to gap mini vans at stop lights lol

Can't wait to see everyone's builds with this, though.