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GR86 General Topics (2nd Gen 2022+ Toyota 86) General topics for the GR86 second-gen 86


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Old 06-10-2021, 03:53 PM   #99
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Miata is a different car with different investments and paybacks.
Please elaborate.

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This is why we never saw a pile of WRX/STi engine swaps even though you would think a Subaru engine is a Subaru engine and they should all just drop in.
From what I recall, one of the challenges with FA20DIT in a BRZ body
is that the exhaust manifold is mirrored since it's a turbo engine.
And I believe there are successful FA20DIT swaps?
Doesn't feel like a great example here.

I don't anticipate FA20 and FA24 to be super different from the packaging perspective.
Hard to swap between generations? Maybe.
Hard/expensive to design a car that would fit either? I don't think so.

Either way, it will be to learn from the experience of folks who
try FA20<->FA24 swaps.
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Old 06-10-2021, 04:00 PM   #100
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Please elaborate.



From what I recall, one of the challenges with FA20DIT in a BRZ body
is that the exhaust manifold is mirrored since it's a turbo engine.
And I believe there are successful FA20DIT swaps?
Doesn't feel like a great example here.

I don't anticipate FA20 and FA24 to be super different from the packaging perspective.
Hard to swap between generations? Maybe.
Hard/expensive to design a car that would fit either? I don't think so.

Either way, it will be to learn from the experience of folks who
try FA20<->FA24 swaps.
The only elbaration is that just because one car has something doesn't mean it is automatically easy nor cost effective for a completely different make and model to do the same. We do not have access to the Mazda and Toyota/Subaru budgets, marketing and manufacturing plans to analyze exactly why they are different but rest assured they will be. The expenses required to crash test and certify two different engines alone could be enough to make them decide it isn't warranted.
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Old 06-10-2021, 04:05 PM   #101
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We do not have access to the Mazda and Toyota/Subaru budgets, marketing and manufacturing plans to analyze exactly why they are different
Sure ...

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but rest assured they will be.
..., we just don't know in which way, and how much
But somehow you're making definite conclusions already.

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The expenses required to crash test and certify two different engines alone could be enough to make them decide it isn't warranted.
I believe crash tests and certifications are different in different markets anyways?
Wouldn't be as much of an issue if they only offered FA20 in Europe,
and only FA24 in North America?
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Old 06-10-2021, 04:14 PM   #102
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Sure ...



..., we just don't know in which way, and how much
But somehow you're making definite conclusions already.



I believe crash tests and certifications are different in different markets anyways?
Wouldn't be as much of an issue if they only offered FA20 in Europe,
and only FA24 in North America?
Certification costs millions. The sales numbers in Europe just don't justify that. Not without the car costing way more than it does. Every change you make to a car raises the manufacturing costs. The costs for making a relative handful of cars with an engine for one very narrow market just wouldn't be there.
I am making no conclusions but these are speculative observations based upon my 30 years employed in the industry. The very fact that there is no FA20 powered version in the European market would seem to support my stand.
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Old 06-10-2021, 04:21 PM   #103
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these are speculative observations based upon my 30 years employed in the industry
Didn't know this forum has been around for 30 years
jk
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Old 06-10-2021, 04:51 PM   #104
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Unlike the whole "They should make a bunch of engines because they can easily and I know since I read the internet"?

How many Twins did they sell in Europe over the run? I didn't say that they couldn't but that it doesn't make economic sense to add the manufacturing costs for two engines.

“I know since I read the internet”

Isn’t that your motto? Everything you have said is no different than the other person speaking. This whole thread is stupid as nobody has any data, but knows everything about the topic. Sounds like uncles arguing on Facebook.


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Old 06-10-2021, 04:56 PM   #105
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Didn't know this forum has been around for 30 years
jk
You do realize that is not what he said don't you? Not sure even with the jk at the end, you really are.

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“I know since I read the internet”

Isn’t that your motto? Everything you have said is no different than the other person speaking.
There really is a difference between an educated opinion based on experience in the market, and just making stuff up based on what you've read on the Internet.

And I can say that with authority because I've done both!
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Old 06-10-2021, 05:47 PM   #106
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You do realize that is not what he said don't you? Not sure even with the jk at the end, you really are.



There really is a difference between an educated opinion based on experience in the market, and just making stuff up based on what you've read on the Internet.

And I can say that with authority because I've done both!
Ive done the internet thing, so that makes me one level below an expert with experience in the industry!
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Old 06-10-2021, 08:59 PM   #107
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As a European citizen,If it wasn't a 2.4L engine i would agree.Europe has high taxes in a lot of countries,above 2000cc.Even though i do prefer the naturally aspirated engine and it's purpose,in Europe a smaller turbocharged engine(maybe 1800cc?) with low CO2 would be a better choice for sales numbers.
Ah, Europe, where the <2.0L turbo 4 banger reigns supreme. It’s always odd to me when I see expensive, large luxury BMWs, Audis and Mercs with little 2.0T engines, until I recall the significant financial/regulatory reasons for it.

I don’t actually mind a smaller turbo engine, but I admire the fact you can still get a NA sports car engine in the affordable RWD segments (MX-5, Twins). I’m guessing Toyobaru kept the twins NA because Europe was not their main target market. North America, Japan and Australia are probably the real targets, since their regulations are more permissive.
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Old 06-10-2021, 09:02 PM   #108
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This is the primary reason the A90 Supra comes in the 2.0L turbo, which really has no reason to exist in the USA.
I’m surprised they even sell the 2.0 Supra in North America. Here in Australia they don’t even offer the 2.0 as it would cost nearly as much as the 3.0 and almost no-one would buy it as a result.
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Old 06-10-2021, 09:08 PM   #109
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I’m surprised they even sell the 2.0 Supra in North America. Here in Australia they don’t even offer the 2.0 as it would cost nearly as much as the 3.0 and almost no-one would buy it as a result.
I have seen 4 Supras in the wild around here this spring All were driven by middle aged women. Like the lower end Mustangs there is a huge market that want the look and badge but don't care about the performance. We just tend to forget they exist.
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Old 06-10-2021, 09:23 PM   #110
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How many Twins did they sell in Europe over the run?
Not sure about total numbers, but I recall reading they sold about 6,000 in the first year, but that rapidly dropped to like 2,500 the next year and kept going down each year thereafter. Not insignificant, but not earth shattering either.

For comparison I think they sold around 20,000 twins in Australia between 2013-2018, or around 3,300 a year (given the AU population is just 26M vs the 500M in the EU, that shows how each market reacted to the twins).

To put that in perspective, if the twins had sold at the AU per capita rate in the EU they would have sold around 64,000 a year in the EU. That would have gotten Toyobaru’s attention for sure!
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Old 06-10-2021, 09:29 PM   #111
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I have seen 4 Supras in the wild around here this spring All were driven by middle aged women. Like the lower end Mustangs there is a huge market that want the look and badge but don't care about the performance. We just tend to forget they exist.
Each market is different, I suspect. Here in Australia we get the Ecoboost Stangs as well as the GTs, but the sales ratio is like 90% GTs to 10% Ecoboosts. Not sure what it is in North America, but here the prices are close enough between them that cashed up petrol heads just get the V8.
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Old 06-11-2021, 02:27 AM   #112
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Didn't know this forum has been around for 30 years
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