CAN BUS - for DIY swappers, HELP! Engineers / shops welcome

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by pro_turbo

its an Auto trans... that is why i am having the late shifting right ?
whenever i use the manual shifting everything is fine..
but in D mode... its anoying... i tried to post my video on my other thread
check it out
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...=144399&page=2

No, I meant the other car you mentioned that shows it working properly. Is that car automatic or manual?

[pro_turbo]

Originally Posted by wparsons

No, I meant the other car you mentioned that shows it working properly. Is that car automatic or manual?

No other car.
Whatbi mean manual. Is move the trans lever from D to M
And use the paddle shift to change gear

Here is the you tube complete video comparison between stock and motec ecu

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by pro_turbo

No other car.
Whatbi mean manual. Is move the trans lever from D to M
And use the paddle shift to change gear

Here is the you tube complete video comparison between stock and motec ecu

Earlier you said this:

Originally Posted by pro_turbo

Even andre from hpa make a review video that is perfectly working.

This is the review video I'm talking about. Was the car in that video automatic or manual?

[pro_turbo]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Earlier you said this:




This is the review video I'm talking about. Was the car in that video automatic or manual?

this is andre simmons https://www.hpacademy.com/

and the review is mine..
it was me
driving auto
did you watch the video
is it not clear ? if not clear that is auto or manual.. i will need to fix the video
give me input

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by pro_turbo

this is andre simmons https://www.hpacademy.com/

and the review is mine..
it was me
driving auto
did you watch the video
is it not clear ? if not clear that is auto or manual.. i will need to fix the video
give me input

Your earlier comments made it sound like there is a video of someone else with an automatic and the same ECU working properly.

Based on your video, it looks like there are multiple issues.

1) Not shifting up without lifting off the gas
2) Not blipping on downshifts
3) No ignition cut on upshifts
4) Lazy full throttle shifts

I'm going to assume that the firmware/tune on the ECU is meant for a manual car and is missing functionality to make it work right.

For 1 and 4, I think the TCU isn't seeing a valid load (or similar) value from the ECU. RPM, TPS, vehicle speed are all shown, but what about engine load? The TCU will use RPM, TPS, vehicle speed AND engine load to determine when to shift. I would assume it also uses load to determine how hard/fast to shift. I would try logging anything related to engine load on both ECU's, and the TCU to see what is different between the stock ECU and the motec.

For 2 and 3, those will be trickier to fully solve. For shifts done manually you'll just need the tune to cut ignition on upshifts and blip throttle on downshifts. To make it work on automatic shifts, it'll need more integration with the TCU so the ECU know that the TCU is shifting (since it won't have input from the shift up/down switches on the steering wheel).

Why do you have the motec in the first place? It doesn't sound like your setup needs anything beyond what a stock ECU with EcuTek can easily handle, and that won't have all these integration issues.

[pro_turbo]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Your earlier comments made it sound like there is a video of someone else with an automatic and the same ECU working properly.

Based on your video, it looks like there are multiple issues.

1) Not shifting up without lifting off the gas
2) Not blipping on downshifts
3) No ignition cut on upshifts
4) Lazy full throttle shifts

I'm going to assume that the firmware/tune on the ECU is meant for a manual car and is missing functionality to make it work right.

For 1 and 4, I think the TCU isn't seeing a valid load (or similar) value from the ECU. RPM, TPS, vehicle speed are all shown, but what about engine load? The TCU will use RPM, TPS, vehicle speed AND engine load to determine when to shift. I would assume it also uses load to determine how hard/fast to shift. I would try logging anything related to engine load on both ECU's, and the TCU to see what is different between the stock ECU and the motec.

For 2 and 3, those will be trickier to fully solve. For shifts done manually you'll just need the tune to cut ignition on upshifts and blip throttle on downshifts. To make it work on automatic shifts, it'll need more integration with the TCU so the ECU know that the TCU is shifting (since it won't have input from the shift up/down switches on the steering wheel).

Why do you have the motec in the first place? It doesn't sound like your setup needs anything beyond what a stock ECU with EcuTek can easily handle, and that won't have all these integration issues.

Ok.. and the number 5 is start button 1 press start. Immediate start the engine
The motec has this feature . But somehow it did not working

And if you really watched the video.. i explained everything that the data from the TCU is the same that the motec reading.
Even before i start the engine
And of course this is the first thing i ve been doing to the motec.
I calibrated everything down to the last two digits behind point..
So trust me the tcu and ecu are sync perfectly.

Yeah i agree about blip and flat shift. I defenetely can configure it later when done with the light throttle thing

The point is. This is claimed to be plig in solution with all the stock ecu has. And it came with a packages and map that already tuned by motec guy. They claimed all the same feel with stock ecu.

I have edelbrock SC. Just not yet installed. Before this problem fix.

Motec are still working on this.
They also feel there is some lost or interference in CAN comunication system between motec and TCU.
I already scan the can with CAN analyser and send them like 250mb of 15 minutes driving on 500k

Let see where it goes.

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by pro_turbo

Ok.. and the number 5 is start button 1 press start. Immediate start the engine
The motec has this feature . But somehow it did not working

You made 132 whp? So are you using the M150 with the stock engine and transmission? Why?

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by pro_turbo

I thought it also the can bus somehow related.
That is why i enter this thread
Someone can info me what style and speed our ft86 can bus is ?
Because the motec has several option on can bus mode to switch

But
As the cluster works fine..(rpm, speed) i think motec base packages is correct.. even the fuel level and water temp is correct.
I tried compare datalogs from TCU side between using motec and stock ECU , they are identical..
Even the reading on motec software and the TCU are the same. Rpm, tps, speed
Motec claims that this plug in ecu when comes with their harness is perfect plug in..
Even andre from hpa make a review video that is perfectly working.
I tried to talk to motec.. and they now are seems also confused about this problem. And have not yet find solution for me.
I sent them datalog.. and they are no mistakes.
What did i do wrong

Here's the thing, it's quite possible that different can bus values for the same things i.e. rpm, load, etc, are sent for the transmission versus the cluster. So, yeah, the motec sends the can signals for the cluster, but it may be sending nothing for the trans, atleast nothing that the TCU recognizes.

Let me clarify this... It's possible that the motec is sending the correct can signals, but without the correct headers for the TCU to even recognize that they're meant for it. Some systems send a single packet type with the same header that multiple can modules look for and receive and some send multiple types of packets with different headers for the different modules. I don't know which the 86 platform uses.

If motec claims the M150 works on automatics, then I would say, this is something that they're going to have to address, because as far as I know, NO ONE has found the can values for the TCU control.

Jaden
^^^^^---Not a can expert by any stretch of the imagination.

[pro_turbo]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Here's the thing, it's quite possible that different can bus values for the same things i.e. rpm, load, etc, are sent for the transmission versus the cluster. So, yeah, the motec sends the can signals for the cluster, but it may be sending nothing for the trans, atleast nothing that the TCU recognizes.

Let me clarify this... It's possible that the motec is sending the correct can signals, but without the correct headers for the TCU to even recognize that they're meant for it. Some systems send a single packet type with the same header that multiple can modules look for and receive and some send multiple types of packets with different headers for the different modules. I don't know which the 86 platform uses.

If motec claims the M150 works on automatics, then I would say, this is something that they're going to have to address, because as far as I know, NO ONE has found the can values for the TCU control.

Jaden
^^^^^---Not a can expert by any stretch of the imagination.

indeed jaden
and did you watch the video ?
i explained and shoot the exact match number between motec and tcu received
if you havent got to watch it
here is the link on this forum
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...2&postcount=19

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by pro_turbo

The point is. This is claimed to be plig in solution with all the stock ecu has. And it came with a packages and map that already tuned by motec guy. They claimed all the same feel with stock ecu.

Confirmed for an automatic, or for a manual?

Based on your setup, I would be selling this and going back to a stock ECU. I don't see any reason why you would benefit from the motec over EcuTek on the stock ECU, and it's WAY more headache. You won't be able to make more power over the stock ECU, so why bother?

[pro_turbo]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Confirmed for an automatic, or for a manual?

Based on your setup, I would be selling this and going back to a stock ECU. I don't see any reason why you would benefit from the motec over EcuTek on the stock ECU, and it's WAY more headache. You won't be able to make more power over the stock ECU, so why bother?

They confirmed it the firmware is the same between manual and auto

Yes i was thinking the same
I am contacting ecutek as we speaking
But with ecutek license for open all cars.. it is pretty damn expensive too
Lets see where i will going from here.

And yes you right. I tried to tweak and tune the stock ecuflash map to the motec table, and it works better

Today i just manage to translate the rom language to motec for the DI / PI contribution
Car feels fantastic.
I did not tune it yet. I leave the close loop do the job.
Motec close loop has never fails me.
It really challenge me to not giving up on this motec.. although the motec guy has given up on me. And put the blame on my car.
Silly. Right ?

[mgp]

Originally Posted by Spartarus

Partial list - I'll throw it up now and fix it later

According the the wiring diagrams,

-Gauge cluster receives the following signals via CAN from the ECM - crankshaft position (tach) and ECT.

-The VSC / ABS ECU receives a crankshaft position sensor signal and a signal from the throttle body sensor.

-The CAN network signals can be monitored via the OBDII port on pins 6 and 14 as shown in the wiring diagram above. This can / will be useful in reverse - engineering the system

Data needed:

OEM CAN baud rate (assumed 500k for now)
OEM CAN ID length (assumed 11-bit standard, but could be 29 [unlikely]) 11 bit confirmed.
ECM Broadcast interval (milliseconds) (assumed 250 for now)
VSC / ABS traction control signals from VSC ECU. (ignition cut? fuel cut? throttle cut?) IMPORTANT! Please cite source and include specific data if able.
CAN ID's for each transmission

^ I assume it was verified that the CAN baud rate is 500k?

Looking to implement a Haltech adapter of sorts with a micro-controller and trying to figure out if I will need 2 CANBUS networks. Haltech's canbus speed is 1M (sport 2000)

Thanks if anyone knows

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by mgp

^ I assume it was verified that the CAN baud rate is 500k?

Yes, it's 500k for FT86. It's been 5 years since the post you've quoted :P

[geraldjust]

Originally Posted by pro_turbo

They confirmed it the firmware is the same between manual and auto

Yes i was thinking the same
I am contacting ecutek as we speaking
But with ecutek license for open all cars.. it is pretty damn expensive too
Lets see where i will going from here.

And yes you right. I tried to tweak and tune the stock ecuflash map to the motec table, and it works better

Today i just manage to translate the rom language to motec for the DI / PI contribution
Car feels fantastic.
I did not tune it yet. I leave the close loop do the job.
Motec close loop has never fails me.
It really challenge me to not giving up on this motec.. although the motec guy has given up on me. And put the blame on my car.
Silly. Right ?

Not sure if this helps... Technically, most can IDs are similar in MT / AT. To my knowledge I haven't observed anything diffent... That being said... iF the can us was partially implemented.... Like RPM, it's transmitted 3 diffent times in diffent part of 2 ID atleast. If they missed one of those then it's possible that it could not run properly. And some bits that flip based if the gas pedal % etc.... Oh and def they will need to make sure they send torque values and some other stuff. Technically the car cna operate without them... But the car would freak out. Do this.. get tech stream.... Connect it and read the TCM. And look what codes you get. And it will give you a clue on what's happening / why. This had nothing to do with OBD2 though. And the possibility of it being your cat could also be it. When it dough though. Check tech stream. Sorry for the late reply.