Autocross, worth it at this price?

[Icecreamtruk]

So im really interested in the possible gains in car control technique from doing autocross. I mainly do time attacks so I actually like being competitive and not just lapping for fun. The problem? The price.

I live in Canada (quebec province) and autocross seems to be ridiculously expensive here. A day of autocross is around $100 if you reserve like 4 months in advance or $130 after that. Its around $60-80 for members but membership is usually another $60-80. For reference, time attacks vary from $180 to $300, but thats a full day at the track with around 2-3hours of track, where autocross is strickly 6 runs (so around 5 minutes of driving).

At that price, I find it very very hard to justify doing it altogether, even if it means I could learn something. I know some people say autox is all about the people and getting together and that shit but im very antisocial for most things and all I really care for is getting better at racing and I do get along with people at time attacks that are all about going fast as well but I dont think any of them goes to autox.

Your thoughs? Is it worth it?

[Shark_Bait88]

At that price, I'd start to think it might not be.

Track days/HPDE will always be a better seat time-to-dollar value, but here in the U.S. autocross is much, much cheaper. That's just looking at entry costs though. An average event here is ~$30 usd once you're a member, which is an annual fee of $65 for SCCA. Some regions will tack on regional dues up to $25 as well, but you're still able to autocross with just about any SCCA group at membership costs with just the national membership. A non-membership event may cost you closer to $45, but still significantly less than what you're looking at in Canada.

It all depends on how you look at the money. Dollars per seat time, HPDE/track days are much cheaper. However, for overall real world running costs autocross wins. For what you'd spend to do 2-3 track days, you could run an entire season of autox. You will get more seat time in just one of those track days than you will the entire autox season, but you'd also only be driving 3-6 days total in the year. Whereas autox you'd be out every month at least once running events with friends.

Going into consumables makes it a lot more complex too. It all comes down to where you really want to dedicate your time and money. I recently decided to dial back my track day focus and instead try to seriously run a season of autocross. Up until now I've just kinda played around in both, but with more serious non-car financial commitments coming up I had to decide on autox because it will consume less of my actual funds, allowing me to save more. Ideally though, I'd prefer to do track days and get more seat time/fun for my money.

[kch]

I've never done autocross before, so take this with a grain of salt. But I've heard multiple HPDE instructors say that they hate instructing autocrossers because they have to un-learn everything. I'm not sure autocross will give you much practical benefit for time trials or other track driving.

But that's just hearsay, so whatever.

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by kch

I've never done autocross before, so take this with a grain of salt. But I've heard multiple HPDE instructors say that they hate instructing autocrossers because they have to un-learn everything. I'm not sure autocross will give you much practical benefit for time trials or other track driving.

But that's just hearsay, so whatever.

There are at a minimum of two sides to every story.

I know a lot of track guys who hate autox, often because they just aren't necessarily good at it. I also know of autocross guys who would go do a track day thinking they're awesome at autox so they're bound to be good at road courses too. There needs to be a bit of humility on both ends.

The benefit an autocrosser has going into an HPDE is that they're used to what their car feels like at the limit, as an autocross run is essentially 60 seconds of driving the car at that point. Being on a track requires a much greater sense of making the car flow and connecting the corners, you really aren't driving at the limit all that much in HPDE, especially when you're first starting. Anyone going from autocross to the track needs to know that they are stepping into a whole other realm, and be humble in accepting instructors' critiques and advice.

There's a saying that's tossed around a lot that essentially states that fast autocrossers often make good road racers, whereas the inverse isn't necessarily true and road racers often have to adjust more to autocross.

I think the key here is "fast autocrossers," because they're generally more likely to understand humility in motorsports and that the people who have been doing it longer generally know better than you.

I can, however, see the situation where the average guy who autocrosses on the weekend (but isn't necessarily one of the fastest, or at least not consistently so) goes to a track day thinking he knows more than he really does because he autocrosses, and has to be retaught lessons like proper turn-in and following the ideal racing line. You watch some people at HPDEs or grassroots events like LeMons and wonder how, if at all, they were taught to follow a racing line. haha

TL;DR: Any sort of performance driving experience should help you improve as a driver, just always be humble and accept that more experienced people know better than you and have something of value to share. Seat time and proper instruction are both keys to getting faster.

[Icecreamtruk]

Thanks for the answer guys. Basically I just wanted for maybe a quicker way to adjusting myself to "steer with the gas" if I may call it that. At the track, this usually means doing 70-80 mph entrys into corners, while having a bit of trail braking, letting the back step out and instead of correcting with the steering, you adjust the amount of throttle you give it to keep the line.

Really clear and fancy on theory, a whole another game of "have you got the balls" at the track. I figured at lower speeds it might be something that I could get used to. I already pratice somewhat that during winter, in either snowy or wet pavement but usually the speed is so slow that I cant really bring it into the track.

For what is consumables and expenses, I accepted the fact that I will go thru a lot quickly, that is not a bother. If I go thru a set of tires in a season, I went thru a set of tires in a season so I got dozens of hours at the track at the very list, while for the same price, I mean still have the tires, but could've done a whole 30 minutes of autocross, how much can I realy learn in 30 minutes (that arent even tied together, just 1 min runs seperated by several minutes/hours at a time).

For the autocross to racetrack and back. I think I make a horrible autocrosser. Im good enough to keep within a sec per min of the fast guys running twins (same tires, im on stock suspension tho). But I think I will have a horrible time visualizing the line. I draw out the line thru a turn before entering the turn and try to stick with the mental image I had of it. I will probably drive like a drunkard if I cant / dont have time to visualize the line. But that is also the reason I think it may help me, allowing me improve my visuals and car control if ever so slightly.

[Shark_Bait88]

If the goal is to just get more used to driving on the limit and throttle steering, autocross is definitely a lower risk venue to practice that in. That being said, getting sideways in autox is usually going to mean you're very slow. It's fun, but slow. haha The fastest guys will look really slow out there, but then set down crazy quick times. The ones sliding a bunch and seeming more erratic are often the slowest ones, like me. haha

[Teseo]

I would like to take autox first just for learn how to recover the control more quickly and safely. Then track day for proper racing lines, but im worried about going 85mph before braking point

[renfield90]

$100 is insane for an autocross. For reference, a National level event here is something like $120-$130. Are you sure you're looking at local/regional events vs. something bigger?

I'm happy to spend $130 on a National event because you get high quality sites/courses and pretty much all the best drivers within a thousand miles show up. For a one day event at the local lot the most I'll spend is $50. Beyond that I'd rather just do an open track day for $150.

All in USD. Google says 100 CAD is 76 USD which I would still consider insane for a local lot event. 60 CAD is 45 USD which IMO is more reasonable. My recommendation would be to consider committing to an entire autocross season if the membership discount breaks even with the one time fee. There is a lot you can learn at an autocross about car control, car placement, and even alternate lines (some corners on some tracks are faster with an autocross "minimum distance" line), but you're going to need more than one or two events to learn those things.

Also recommend you go check out an event first. If they have a small lot there's less that translates to the track. If they have a larger lot with 50-60 MPH sweepers you're going to see more benefit.

[Icecreamtruk]

@renfield90 its a weird thing. They are local clubs, not sanctionned by the SCCA or anything like that to my knowledge (and according to info I can find about them on their websites). They create the events mostly on tracks, using part of the track and part of the paddock most of the time. I dont know how fast their stuff is, I will go check them out at some point. Im affraid of commiting to a whole season, only to find after the first event that either I hate it or I wont learn much from it (cuz of configuration) or both.
@Teseo 85mph after the braking is done and thru the turn, not before

[swarb]

Skidpad day is an alternative and an in-between for those trying to learn car control. Most of the people would be trying to practice or learn instead of lap times or passing that one car all day(and telling all your friends about it for years).

[Icecreamtruk]

Originally Posted by swarb

Skidpad day is an alternative and an in-between for those trying to learn car control. Most of the people would be trying to practice or learn instead of lap times or passing that one car all day(and telling all your friends about it for years).

Haha, I know what you mean by that ("dude, I totally got that porsche gt3 out there", nevermind the fact that he was on a cooldown lap). Unfortunately I dont think I have ever heard of skid pad days. The closes to that would probably be the drift days at one of the tracks I go to. The track is at an airport so when you take the barriers out and ignore the lines, its just a big asphalt lot. I dont want to drift tho, I dont know how the rest of the people there will feel about me when I go at it with like a 5% angle and 20mph faster than I should be (because I want to pratice throtle steer not power drifting, so I need to be in an oversteer situation caused by speed, not by throttle).

[tracerit]

Originally Posted by swarb

Skidpad day is an alternative and an in-between for those trying to learn car control. Most of the people would be trying to practice or learn instead of lap times or passing that one car all day(and telling all your friends about it for years).

Do you knwo of any type of event like this in the LA/OC area? I remember a few years ago, around 2013 i believe, there was a member here who hosted a sort of class on how to handle our cars.

[Twinz]

I think autocross is a great way to learn car control because of the way all the required steering inputs tend to come at you in rapid succession. The car spends very little time "settled" and most of the time "on its toes".

[Fenix]

Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk

So im really interested in the possible gains in car control technique from doing autocross. I mainly do time attacks so I actually like being competitive and not just lapping for fun. The problem? The price.

I live in Canada (quebec province) and autocross seems to be ridiculously expensive here. A day of autocross is around $100 if you reserve like 4 months in advance or $130 after that. Its around $60-80 for members but membership is usually another $60-80. For reference, time attacks vary from $180 to $300, but thats a full day at the track with around 2-3hours of track, where autocross is strickly 6 runs (so around 5 minutes of driving).

At that price, I find it very very hard to justify doing it altogether, even if it means I could learn something. I know some people say autox is all about the people and getting together and that shit but im very antisocial for most things and all I really care for is getting better at racing and I do get along with people at time attacks that are all about going fast as well but I dont think any of them goes to autox.

Your thoughs? Is it worth it?

Are you taking it on a trailer? Running your car balls out on a track greatly increases the risk of shit breaking. You run the risk of being stranded after a catastrophic failure or worse. You should also get track insurance.