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Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain.


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Old 12-18-2017, 05:36 PM   #29
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Which headers were you running while NA? Also, by more enjoyable power band, do you mean the entire power band, top end, and/or low end? I'm mainly just looking for some more low end torque for around town & cruising RPM.

My first header was an openflash UEL, and I also ran a PPE EL for a short time before going FI. I didn't notice a big difference between the two, at all really. My power band preference statement referred to everything, but mainly low/mid-range torque which is what this car needs. A header(Context is going from E85 to header/E85) will certainly allow past 6K to not die off as much....but the jump from pump gas to E85 is much much better than the jump from pump gas/stock header to pump gas/aftermarket header.
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Old 12-19-2017, 03:24 PM   #30
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Between the Tomel El and my current long tube EL there was a huge difference in the mid-range. 25-30 lb.ft. of torque will do that. Although, as I said before, a UEL with a good E85 tune can come close in the mid-range and have very comparable top end to any EL without the extra cost.

Red trace Tomel El Blue trace Long tube EL on 91 gas:


I've gotten more peak HP (another 10whp) from this setup since this initial test.
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Old 12-20-2017, 07:49 AM   #31
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Between the Tomel El and my current long tube EL there was a huge difference in the mid-range. 25-30 lb.ft. of torque will do that. Although, as I said before, a UEL with a good E85 tune can come close in the mid-range and have very comparable top end to any EL without the extra cost.

Red trace Tomel El Blue trace Long tube EL on 91 gas:


I've gotten more peak HP (another 10whp) from this setup since this initial test.
Thanks for giving a great example of the difference between types of EL headers. My 2 cents: Tomei make good quality short tube EL headers - personally I think they're better suited for FI applications. Long tube EL headers are better suited for NA applications as they fatten your torque curve nicely.

For those looking for EL headers for NA application, look at the above headers (PLM, nameless knock off), Nameless long tube, P&L long tube, PPE, PTuning. All different designs with different characteristics (primary vs secondary lengths, 4-2-1 vs 4-1, different tube diameters etc.), but all have longer tubes and all make a big difference in the low-mid range.

I run OFT with Shiv's stage 2 EL tune out of the box and it works great - could I squeeze out more power with a custom tune? Maybe - custom tunes are where OFT falls short, not many people other than Shiv will tune with it - if you're looking to spend the cash for a custom tune then Ecutek might be the way to go unless you have a good resource who will tune with the OFT. Otherwise, OFT works very well with the canned tunes and a good header.
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Old 12-20-2017, 12:09 PM   #32
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Thanks for the input guys. I actually found a modified stock header, so I think I'll stick with that for now. Should be most of the gains without the big cost of an upgraded header. There's always time for better upgrades in the future.
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Old 12-22-2017, 11:34 PM   #33
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Thanks for giving a great example of the difference between types of EL headers. My 2 cents: Tomei make good quality short tube EL headers - personally I think they're better suited for FI applications. Long tube EL headers are better suited for NA applications as they fatten your torque curve nicely.

For those looking for EL headers for NA application, look at the above headers (PLM, nameless knock off), Nameless long tube, P&L long tube, PPE, PTuning. All different designs with different characteristics (primary vs secondary lengths, 4-2-1 vs 4-1, different tube diameters etc.), but all have longer tubes and all make a big difference in the low-mid range.

I run OFT with Shiv's stage 2 EL tune out of the box and it works great - could I squeeze out more power with a custom tune? Maybe - custom tunes are where OFT falls short, not many people other than Shiv will tune with it - if you're looking to spend the cash for a custom tune then Ecutek might be the way to go unless you have a good resource who will tune with the OFT. Otherwise, OFT works very well with the canned tunes and a good header.
You want to see the difference between a canned tune vs something that's closer to optimized?

@Tor's little project running Gruppe-S UEL.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=14



I think the answer is closer to "definitely" than it is "maybe". Results will obviously vary. I'm sure he has put many many hours developing the tune and is still looking to improve it further.

While OTS tunes are plenty good. A more specific tune is worthwhile investment of time and/or money IMO.
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Old 12-23-2017, 06:04 PM   #34
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You want to see the difference between a canned tune vs something that's closer to optimized?

@Tor's little project running Gruppe-S UEL.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=14



I think the answer is closer to "definitely" than it is "maybe". Results will obviously vary. I'm sure he has put many many hours developing the tune and is still looking to improve it further.

While OTS tunes are plenty good. A more specific tune is worthwhile investment of time and/or money IMO.
Yeah I probably didn't pick the right wording there - I've actually had it on my list to explore what I can do to optimize the current OFT stage 2 EL tune I'm running. I'll tell you running a *good* long tube EL header + a canned tune is a pretty big difference over stock I just don't understand enough to comfortably tweak an OTS tune for my configuration, and I don't have time for the "empirical" approach of try something, test it, repeat. Soon I'm also planning to add on a set of Crawford BPBs, so maybe once that's done I'll have Shiv (or someone else if there is someone else?) tune it as a whole.
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Old 12-24-2017, 12:56 AM   #35
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Yeah I probably didn't pick the right wording there - I've actually had it on my list to explore what I can do to optimize the current OFT stage 2 EL tune I'm running. I'll tell you running a *good* long tube EL header + a canned tune is a pretty big difference over stock I just don't understand enough to comfortably tweak an OTS tune for my configuration, and I don't have time for the "empirical" approach of try something, test it, repeat. Soon I'm also planning to add on a set of Crawford BPBs, so maybe once that's done I'll have Shiv (or someone else if there is someone else?) tune it as a whole.
Depending on your setup, maybe somebody already has something that is a better starting point or closer to optimized than the OFT OTS tunes. Just got to ask the right people. If you know what I mean.
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Old 12-29-2017, 09:56 AM   #36
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Depending on your setup, maybe somebody already has something that is a better starting point or closer to optimized than the OFT OTS tunes. Just got to ask the right people. If you know what I mean.
I recently picked up a JDL equal length header. It's not installed *yet*. The plan is tuning it the open-source way.
I will probably miss it, when it's under the car. It's looking as beautiful as seen on pictures in their thread.
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Old 01-01-2018, 06:36 PM   #37
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Yeah I probably didn't pick the right wording there - I've actually had it on my list to explore what I can do to optimize the current OFT stage 2 EL tune I'm running. I'll tell you running a *good* long tube EL header + a canned tune is a pretty big difference over stock I just don't understand enough to comfortably tweak an OTS tune for my configuration, and I don't have time for the "empirical" approach of try something, test it, repeat. Soon I'm also planning to add on a set of Crawford BPBs, so maybe once that's done I'll have Shiv (or someone else if there is someone else?) tune it as a whole.
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I recently picked up a JDL equal length header. It's not installed *yet*. The plan is tuning it the open-source way.
I will probably miss it, when it's under the car. It's looking as beautiful as seen on pictures in their thread.
This 4-1 to cat seems to be one of the earliest design for this engine.. though I'm not aware of anyone really developing the tune for this N/A. @Wayno @steve99 , maybe?
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Old 01-01-2018, 09:22 PM   #38
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This 4-1 to cat seems to be one of the earliest design for this engine.. though I'm not aware of anyone really developing the tune for this N/A. @Wayno @steve99 , maybe?
Yeah unfortunately it's not as popular as the rest, but I really like it - from my research so far, the 4-2-1's are more popular and have a bit of a 'double bump' modification to the torque curve, where the 4-1's will give a single bigger torque bump - feels that way too... kicks in just after 3k where the car needs it the most, gives the car a genuine sense of urgency. Also provides a nice surge 6k to redline that wasn't there before. Right now just using one of Shiv's OTS EL stage 2 tunes. It feels great but I imagine it would feel even better if it were customized for this header configuration - I'm just not expert enough to tackle it alone
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Old 01-01-2018, 10:09 PM   #39
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Yeah unfortunately it's not as popular as the rest, but I really like it - from my research so far, the 4-2-1's are more popular and have a bit of a 'double bump' modification to the torque curve, where the 4-1's will give a single bigger torque bump - feels that way too... kicks in just after 3k where the car needs it the most, gives the car a genuine sense of urgency. Also provides a nice surge 6k to redline that wasn't there before. Right now just using one of Shiv's OTS EL stage 2 tunes. It feels great but I imagine it would feel even better if it were customized for this header configuration - I'm just not expert enough to tackle it alone
I could be wrong, but Shiv's maps were designed for 4-2-1 header and not 4-1. At lease I dont think.
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Old 01-02-2018, 06:29 AM   #40
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Yes, from technical aspects 4-2-1 (long tube) are the best. Unfortunately either of them Ace or Nameless would have cost me at least 2 grands (including shipping and customs). I'd rather save that up for other mods.
The only headers they sell in my country are trashy eBay headers (like OEM but without a cat) and a UEL model that looks pretty much like a Gruppe-S. From a design perspective UEL is not my thing.

Don't know if the dyno plots I have seen are true... If yes then that's all I wanted from a header. If not, at least the build quality is outstanding. And it will never be worse than OEM. To be honest, from the looks of the collector, I'm not a single bit concerned.

About tuning: I expect difficulties. I see a lot of playing with the vgi-tool in the near future coming. 😉
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Old 01-23-2018, 01:51 AM   #41
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I just added a catless el header...

Quote:
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Anybody have some input on this? I currently run the OFT e85 tune and am satisfied with the top end power, but would like some more lower end grunt. My debate is that if I go with headers, I want one of the better ones, so that means either Ace or PTuning and an ecutek tune. How would this compare to my current OFT e85 tune? Would I be satisfied going back to 91 with headers? Hoping for similar top end, and more mid range torque.
I just added a catless el header and the stage 2 oft tune and it feels stronger in the mid range than stock header with e85 oft tune.

Butt dyno anyways... also 0-60 time might be slightly better than stock with e85 as well...

Jaden
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Old 01-23-2018, 01:33 PM   #42
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I just added a catless el header and the stage 2 oft tune and it feels stronger in the mid range than stock header with e85 oft tune.

Butt dyno anyways... also 0-60 time might be slightly better than stock with e85 as well...

Jaden
Nice. I'm getting a package in the mail (thanks @lutfy), not expecting much but hoping it's stronger around the midrange on 91.

I just stepped up to grippier tires, too. This car is going to be much faster in the turns now.
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