2020 86 Stock Amp Specs & Stereo Upgrade

[blueskiesgreenlights]

Originally Posted by Autoxer62

Is there a wish list post I missed?

I couldn't find one so I posted one here
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...t=6873&page=18

[blueskiesgreenlights]

As stated above, I expected the AudioControl LGD to resolve the HU to AC amp issue. However, after installing first the blue AC LGD (100w) and then green AC LGD (50w) neither seemed to solve the problem.


The only sounds I can get are from the STOCK factory speakers I left in the back seat area. Using AC software I can link this source and send it to the front tweeters and woofers. This arrangement limits the flexibility and tuning of the front speakers. Also, importantly, it offers no low end frequencies for the subwoofer.


These blue LGD were first introduced in 2005 primarily for american brands. Subsequently a green version was produced as the condition spread and more recently a gray version. I don't know why the manufacturers are introducing these obstacles.



The net effect is the extensive manipulation of the sound frequency available with AC's software is handicapped and there is no sound for the subwoofer. As an aside, I used the MM as a "sacraficial wire loom" to tap into the speaker input. I went directly into the HU factory wires to power the stock, factory speakers.


AC tech support is looking into this but so far no solution. Any suggestions?

[soundman98]

i know it ruins your intentions, but might need to swap the factory radio for an aftermarket one.

but ought to be able to re-use all the factory harnesses for it...

[blueskiesgreenlights]

While I appreciate soundman98's well intentioned reply, I find it hard to believe that an industry as technologically advanced as auto audio electronics cannot solve a seemingly simple problem.

AudioControl's main selling point - and the reason I was willing to pay a premium price for their product - is that their aftermarket products negate the necessity to replace the well integrated features of modern cars. It may well turn out that my options are either to reinstall the OEM factory speakers, amp, etc or to purchase a HU that will work with the aftermarket accessories I've purchased (and spent an inordinate amount of time learning how to install them correctly).

In the latter option, if something as simple as a non factory speaker can cause such problems to a high end sound system is there any reason to believe that similar issues would not arise from trying to integrate an aftermarket HU into the many features of modern steering wheels, phones, etc.?

Pardon my frustration but I think it is well founded. I find it hard to believe that this problem can't be solved.

[soundman98]

[rant]i've held off a little because at first it sounds like a "tech support explaining 'obviously technologically complex things' in a 'simple manner' so they can move on to the next simpleminded idiot" thing.

personally, i'm extremely surprised that this thread is the first time i've heard of factory radio's not working with aftermarket gear. i know there's a few vehicles that use canbus, or optical audio connections with specialized protocols, but have never heard of analog systems with this problem before. i honestly think it's something to do with the way audiocontrol integrates/expects the signal to work, but i'm not familiar enough with audiocontrol gear to have any confidence in that. which is why i never said anything before.

with this vehicle, i know there's been plenty of people that have replaced the factory speakers with aftermarket, as well as a number of people that simply added a sub in the trunk with variations of the same method you've used(usually with some more wiring destruction, but connecting to the same wires). never have they presented these issues.

[/rant]

firstly, have you tried the amp without the LGD? i'm not entirely convinced that they're required. i believe the factory door speaker amp is class D, but i suspect that the radio output itself is more of a standard class a/b.

but what i dislike the most about these modules is that audiocontrol appears to be the only company selling anything like it, not even alibaba resellers have them. you can't tell me that one single company somehow knows something the entire car audio industry and chinese reproduction electronics industry doesn't. i'm not denying that they might have a positive effect, but this module screams money-grab, just the same as those $60 wooden blocks in high end stereo magazines to "lift speaker cables off the floor and reduce resonance"...

second, something that could be tried for minimal extra cost is to use a Line Output Converter(LOC). this one's $10, could probably find one locally for under $30 at any audio shop, they commonly stock them for the 'add subs' crowd.
https://www.amazon.com/PAC-SNI-35-Va.../dp/B001EAWS3W

a LOC is what would be considered the more 'antique' option to connecting an amp to a factory system. the reasoning here is that it would change the factory wiring 'speaker-level' signal to the more aftermarket-industry-standard of low level RCA jack type signal. it also removes the line level conversion to a different, potentially more adjustable/expendable external module that can more easily be tested/diagnosed.

the benefit to this method is that any aftermarket amp would then work. it does defeat the purpose of the specialty audiocontrol amp(same as installing an aftermarket head unit), but then allows one to test and verify the entire system to extremely well-established methods. literally any youtube video on 'connecting/setting up an amp' will then apply, and you can forego any of the specialty audiocontrol stuff in setup and wiring.

i believe audiocontrol, and other more competition-level ears would argue that the 'cheap LOC' method could introduce some noise, or distort the signal that could prevent getting the most out of the amp/system(keep in mind that this mindset will be specifically geared towards winning 1st place at audio competition events, in a stationary vehicle, using test equipment), but at this point, anything working is better than nothing working. noise can be mitigated with different gear if the result proves successful in making things work. LOC's have been on the market since the market began.

but first, try it without the voodoo LGD's.

[thomasmryan]

This was/is my solution. A better DAC to use in all the cars.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by thomasmryan

This was/is my solution. A better DAC to use in all the cars.

but it's not really a solution when you feed it into the factory sound system, if the factory sound system was the initial problem.

it's like changing the wheels, but keeping the tires, and then bragging about increased grip and braking capability.

[blueskiesgreenlights]

Pulled the HU out today to re-check the wiring. No problem here.


The LGDs were employed as a solution to the problem. In other words, the absence of front speaker input is the same with or without LGDs.


When the LGDs failed to work I put in a call to Audio Control tech support. Perhaps they'll have a solution. If so, I'll post it to provide the info to all.

[blueskiesgreenlights]

Originally Posted by thomasmryan

This was/is my solution. A better DAC to use in all the cars.

I had considered an external DAC before I began the stereo upgrade project. I'd noticed that music sounded slightly better coming from a USB drive than my phone. Some phones have chips embedded to process music while others (like mine) don't. Nevertheless, I reasoned that a system upgrade would improve all sound.


One of the reasons I abandoned this inquiry was that I had difficulty getting info confirming that this would improve. What is the brand and model of your DAC?

[soundman98]

have you tried running an 3.5mm-to-rca cable to the amp, and then using your phone/mp3 player as a source?

it would require some software alterations to your setup temporarily, but would at least confirm that you're working with a functional amp, and the aftermarket speakers are connected properly. at this point, no audio could actually mean you've got a DOA amp.

looking over the amp manual, there's some diagnostic led's listed on page 4-- under the top cover. was part of audiocontrols back-n-forth verifying that these led's are lighting up in the correct sequence with no errors?



you could also try connecting the amp audio input from the head unit to your new door speaker wiring with no risk of damage to the speakers-- just wire nut them together. if all those connections to the amp are correct, the speakers will work, just at the lower oem power level, with no dsp control of course.


if you were anywhere near chicago, i'd be willing to take a weekend trip to look the setup over, and even bring some other gear to check other connections/test alternatives.

[blueskiesgreenlights]

I checked the diagnostic leds and all were blue (no problem).


I'll purchase a 3.5mm-to-rca cable and test.


That's very generous of you to offer to check connections/test alternatives. Unfortunately, I'm not anywhere close to Chicago. Thank you just the same!



I'm determined to fix the problem. Option one, mentioned earlier, was not a serious consideration.

[thomasmryan]

I use this Oppo headphone amp/dac on the computer with foobar2000. You kinda have to jump though some hoops to snag 24/96 files off a Blueray but doable. DVDs are easy but to do SACD discs, you have to have an Oppo 105.


Periapt makes really good cables for a reasonable price.



The LG V60 has similar hardware if you scroll down and look at the specs.
https://www.androidauthority.com/lg-quad-dac-1115577/

[blueskiesgreenlights]

Originally Posted by soundman98

have you tried running an 3.5mm-to-rca cable to the amp, and then using your phone/mp3 player as a source?

it would require some software alterations to your setup temporarily, but would at least confirm that you're working with a functional amp, and the aftermarket speakers are connected properly. at this point, no audio could actually mean you've got a DOA amp.

looking over the amp manual, there's some diagnostic led's listed on page 4-- under the top cover. was part of audiocontrols back-n-forth verifying that these led's are lighting up in the correct sequence with no errors?



you could also try connecting the amp audio input from the head unit to your new door speaker wiring with no risk of damage to the speakers-- just wire nut them together. if all those connections to the amp are correct, the speakers will work, just at the lower oem power level, with no dsp control of course.


if you were anywhere near chicago, i'd be willing to take a weekend trip to look the setup over, and even bring some other gear to check other connections/test alternatives.

Per your suggestion, I purchased the 3.5mm-to-rca cable to the amp and have spent 12 hrs today testing configurations to isolate the problem. At this point, the left channel works fine as does the right tweeter, the right woofer in the door, however, plays only at a very low volume and does not register in the DM Smart DSP app input display.


Tomorrow I'll try connecting the speakers directly from the HU as you suggested and swap the door woofers. I'm 75% of the way troubleshooting the Sony crossovers. If this is not the problem my conclusion is that either the Sony woofer is defective or the Audio Control d-6.1200 is deficient.


If its the Sony I'm OK. They have a 3 year warranty. As stated earlier in this thread, when I was evaluating the d-6.1200 purchase I noticed that offering prices ranged from $800-1200. I attributed this to the inflationary environment and moved quickly to grab one for $800 on eBay. Every major purchase I've made from a reputable company has always come with a factory warranty but I've since read the terms of AC warranty policy and, if the d-6.1200 is defective, I've got a serious problem.


In short, non-professional customers who purchase from a non authorized dealer are on their own -- professional installers get a 5 yr warranty and authorized dealer DIYers get 1 yr. The d-6.1200 I purchased was new (not refurbish or open box), in a factory sealed retail box, and was the exact model number (version) as the more expensive offers.



Hopefully, the d-6 is not the problem. Audio Control appears to be a first class operation and I'll be surprised, and disappointed, if the amp is DOA.


As an aside, I did return the Blaupunkt sub amp. The Skar Audio RP-800.1D seems a more prudent choice. The 2 year factory warranty did not go unnoticed.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by blueskiesgreenlights

Per your suggestion, I purchased the 3.5mm-to-rca cable to the amp and have spent 12 hrs today testing configurations to isolate the problem. At this point, the left channel works fine as does the right tweeter, the right woofer in the door, however, plays only at a very low volume and does not register in the DM Smart DSP app input display.


Tomorrow I'll try connecting the speakers directly from the HU as you suggested and swap the door woofers. I'm 75% of the way troubleshooting the Sony crossovers. If this is not the problem my conclusion is that either the Sony woofer is defective or the Audio Control d-6.1200 is deficient.

that's great news that you got something working.

something i struggle to remember when troubleshooting is to distill things down to the very basics, and work away from those points.

speakers are simple devices. a coil of wire is suspended in front of a magnet, and an electric current is passed through the wire. that makes for a magnetic field, which opposes the fixed magnet, and with a fluctuating electric current, makes for vibrations, which makes for sound once that coil is attached to a cone. anything beyond this fundamental is really just superfluous at this diagnostic step.

crossovers are slightly more complex in that they route the electrical signals based on the frequencies--the different components and internal routing have a few different failure modes, but again, are fundamentally basic and reliable enough that failure doesn't happen much if at all.

an amplifier, specifically in this case, has 6 separate inputs/outputs. it takes a lower voltage in on the input, and makes the same signal on a bigger voltage on the output. it doesn't care what the signal is, only that it gets routed to the right output at an increased level.


so with this in mind, you've verified that the left speakers and crossover unit work from the amp to the speaker in the current configuration. easiest thing to do is to swap the left and right output channels on the amp-- that would make the left signal go to the right speaker for the time being, but would confirm/deny if you've got an issue at the speaker/crossover/wiring, or the amp.

the likelihood of the speakers, crossovers, or wiring being bad is low. it does happen, but with modern manufacturing practices, is low enough of a risk to be an anomaly. the above test would verify that.


if everything works swapping the output channels, that's good-ish news. it means that the speakers, and wiring, are all working properly(as they ought to be), and you don't need to entirely start over with the full install. the problem resides at the amp.


the difference here is that it's a digital amp, with internal digital signal routing, which is a different aspect, but important to not panic on.



about 15 years or so ago now, i ran a computer in my car for audio processing. it was the early days of the tech that your amp now has, it pretty much didn't exist at all. so i rolled my own because a $1500 computer using semi-tested pro-level gear was 'cheaper' than a first-to-market $2k DSP with specialized software and connectors. there was a lot of trial and error to get it all working, and even more to make it reliable.



the previous step to check the speakers will put you well beyond this, but to move backwards a moment-- the note that you get a low level audio signal through the right side speakers, and nothing on the dsp display might indicate that there's cross-talk between channels(typical for any multi-channel amp)-- you could have the routing all wrong, and might have mistakenly not connected the right side input/output to each other, which would do exactly as you're saying it's doing.

i did that more than a few times while setting up that carpc setup-- i'd swear i got all the signal routing right, only to drop a speaker somewhere, i'd panic, spend hours tearing apart all the wiring, and speakers, convinced that it was a physical problem, that was really just a lack of programming experience on my part. another fun part was i'd reboot the computer, and the audio devices would repopulate in a different random order into the software, so suddenly, my sub would become my tweeters...

so quadruple check your DSP software settings, and when in doubt, change the inputs-- an important aspect here is that amp specifically has 6 independent inputs and outputs. if you suspect that output #2 doesn't work, try the other 4 outputs.

of course, it doesn't fix the problem long-term if a few inputs/outputs are bad, but the 'extra' channels can be used to your benefit speed up troubleshooting and diagnosis--it's usually easier than swapping amps.


this post is long enough for now, so i'm just going to leave the rest till later. i do feel your pain, though recall that many ebay sellers are voracious for a positive feedback rating, so if you've done everything you can to verify the amp is bad in the above steps, before panicking, reach out to the ebay seller, they might be willing to help.