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Old 01-18-2023, 11:55 AM   #337
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lmao that elon d1ckrider channel is terrible, dozens of videos with the same damn titles


_____ CEO FINALLY ADMITS _____
THIS IS BAD

______ SHOCKS THE ENTIRE INDUSTRY
INSANE NEW BATTERY


shameless bullshit through and through
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Old 01-18-2023, 01:40 PM   #338
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Interesting if not 100% accurate. Seems heavily tilted towards Tesla, with things like Tesla having "higher quality components" and while talking about how much Tesla makes per car, it fails to mention that the main reason for the difference is the lack of a dealer network so Tesla gets all profit from the end sale, Toyota only gets wholesale profit.
Sandy Munro tore down Teslas and said many of the components were higher quality compared to the industry standards from the type of coolant hose fittings to the new single piece castings. Original cars had a mixture of better components and pieced-together fenders. Lots has changed, but I believe the author of the video was referring to Monroís commentary, which is typically in praise of the quality of the components and the design, especially through iteration changes.

Even though Tesla is in Texas, to comply with dealership laws, Tesla must ship the cars to a state that allows Teslas to be sold direct to consumers and then ship the cars back to customers in Texas. Manufacturers typically sell with low margins and make money on replacement parts. Dealers do the same and make the bulk of their profit on servicing older cars. It is a different business model because Teslas have a larger profit margin up front, but smaller servicing needs. They also make a few grand on each of their cars by not having any advertisement. Then there are the gigafactories with efficiency of scale, large casting machines, more efficient battery production, vertical integration, more automation, less red tape to get changes to cars and anything else Iím missing.

Tesla is doing well considering they are passing other premium car manufacturers in total sales. Once the Cybertruck ramps up production, they will be blowing past BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Cadillac, Audi, Infiniti, Acura, etc. Iím sure their success is being taken notice. Hyundai seems like they are taking things the most seriously and then VW/Audi, but there is a long way to go to get to where Tesla is at with everything.
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Old 01-18-2023, 02:07 PM   #339
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Engine mfg plants are expensive to tool and operate. These guys don't give a shit about thunberg (they shouldn't). It's all about the numbers.
Well yeah. It is a business. It isnít a non-profit.

Their company mission is to accelerate the adoption of electric cars. To what end besides profit isnít clear, but being profitable will ďlead by exampleĒ and accelerate manufacturers switching to BEVs faster, if it turns out to be overall more profitable and desirable. At least for premium car buyers, most live in homes with garages and with the means to charge at home with solar to feed the car, so Iím not surprised they are doing well in this segment. Premium and luxury car owners want something quiet, smooth, powerful, with lots of technology and if they can get reliability then that would be perfect and BEVs offer all these benefits, so again, nothing here is surprising.

The fact that end-of-life emissions are better than ICEs, especially in the premium car segment, regardless of where the electricity is sourced, is just another way these buyers can feel good, but it isnít the chief reason most people are buying them. I mean Apple touts their phones as being free of many harmful substances used in the phone industry and having some high percentage of recycled parts, but no one buys an iPhone because it might be greener than a Samsung or another manufacturer. It is just part of the brand image that prevents people from being dissuaded from buying the product. People still buy Nike knowing their shoes and shirts are made in sweat shops. If they said they had a change of practice to American suppliers only then that might improve the brand image, but it wouldnít boost sales if the product didnít change besides the few that were dissuaded by their practices, which is a tiny minority. Most are just interested in the end product and brand image. In the case of Nike, it is performance, premium, active. For Apple and Tesla, it is modern and premium, but the products are good in their own right, unlike Nike with a logo print on a regular shirt.
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Old 01-18-2023, 03:22 PM   #340
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Tesla is doing well considering they are passing other premium car manufacturers in total sales....
That's the biggest win for Tesla, convincing buyers that all their models are "premium" or "luxury" cars while stripping them down to basically bare interiors on the inside, and still getting to charge a premium price. Yet they continue to remove valuable parts of their cars (brake pad quality, turnstalks, etc)

There is absolutely nothing premium about a Model 3 or the Cybertruck. As far as I'm concerned my barebones 1977 Honda Civic Wagon was a more premium car than either of those. Just my opinion, of course, and I have spoken with my buying dollar.

Not that it will directly impact Tesla for now.
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Old 01-18-2023, 03:56 PM   #341
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That's the biggest win for Tesla, convincing buyers that all their models are "premium" or "luxury" cars while stripping them down to basically bare interiors on the inside, and still getting to charge a premium price. Yet they continue to remove valuable parts of their cars (brake pad quality, turnstalks, etc)

There is absolutely nothing premium about a Model 3 or the Cybertruck. As far as I'm concerned my barebones 1977 Honda Civic Wagon was a more premium car than either of those. Just my opinion, of course, and I have spoken with my buying dollar.

Not that it will directly impact Tesla for now.
I'd say my parent's model 3 is at least as nice as my grandparents 09' Civic
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Old 01-18-2023, 04:33 PM   #342
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That's the biggest win for Tesla, convincing buyers that all their models are "premium" or "luxury" cars while stripping them down to basically bare interiors on the inside, and still getting to charge a premium price. Yet they continue to remove valuable parts of their cars (brake pad quality, turnstalks, etc)

There is absolutely nothing premium about a Model 3 or the Cybertruck. As far as I'm concerned my barebones 1977 Honda Civic Wagon was a more premium car than either of those. Just my opinion, of course, and I have spoken with my buying dollar.

Not that it will directly impact Tesla for now.
That is your subjective opinion, but it is very, very far away from the objective reality of what the 1977 Honda Civic Wagon was versus what a Model 3 is today. BMW does the same thing with the 2 series compared to the 3, 5, 7. The gradient transition from economy to premium to luxury changes over time too and can get blurred between premium/luxury car manufactures and economy manufactures.

The base Model 3 is still premium by most standards. Obviously people are willing to pay premium prices for the car, so either you are correct that Tesla has successfully fooled hundreds of thousands of buyers, so maybe the car is premium. I'm sure if we list all the features of the car, compare the ride quality, the power of the drivetrain, the sound deadening, the quality of the components, materials, UI quality, etc. then the car would fit into a premium category. What is it lacking that another premium car in its class has? I didn't realize they downgraded their brake pads when they have regen.
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Old 01-18-2023, 06:15 PM   #343
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That is your subjective opinion, but it is very, very far away from the objective reality of what the 1977 Honda Civic Wagon was versus what a Model 3 is today. BMW does the same thing with the 2 series compared to the 3, 5, 7. The gradient transition from economy to premium to luxury changes over time too and can get blurred between premium/luxury car manufactures and economy manufactures.

The base Model 3 is still premium by most standards. Obviously people are willing to pay premium prices for the car, so either you are correct that Tesla has successfully fooled hundreds of thousands of buyers, so maybe the car is premium. I'm sure if we list all the features of the car, compare the ride quality, the power of the drivetrain, the sound deadening, the quality of the components, materials, UI quality, etc. then the car would fit into a premium category. What is it lacking that another premium car in its class has? I didn't realize they downgraded their brake pads when they have regen.
Tesla is literally the iphone of the automotive world.
People will buy those even at their stupid overpriced values for no reason...(the apple tax is real! even if it isnt a real thing). It is THE brand when it comes to EV's.

Having an actual good charging network via the Supercharger network is also a huge benefit. Having a lets say 95% reliable charging network available vs an issue plagued at best 50% reliable non Tesla charging network available is going to be huge for consumer confidence.

People will pay for all those benefits. Even if the product itself wouldnt be considered worth the price of admission. Tesla is still the best and worst EV you can buy right now.
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Old 01-18-2023, 06:52 PM   #344
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Tesla is literally the iphone of the automotive world.
People will buy those even at their stupid overpriced values for no reason...(the apple tax is real! even if it isnt a real thing). It is THE brand when it comes to EV's.

Having an actual good charging network via the Supercharger network is also a huge benefit. Having a lets say 95% reliable charging network available vs an issue plagued at best 50% reliable non Tesla charging network available is going to be huge for consumer confidence.

People will pay for all those benefits. Even if the product itself wouldnt be considered worth the price of admission. Tesla is still the best and worst EV you can buy right now.
Compared to other EVs, there is the network, the range, the performance, the UI, autopilot, sentry mode/integrated cameras, automatic updates/upgrades, better space, phone entry, top performance in crash/safety, 8yr/120k powertrain warranty, and more. Last week my coworker stood under an awning out of the rain and summoned his Model Y Performance to his position, so he didn't have to go in the rain. He said he forgot his umbrella. The interior was already preheated too.

I have an iPhone, Apple Watch and MacBook Pro. It is nice to be able to be on my phone, open my laptop, see an icon pop up with the webpage I was looking at on my phone and just being able to open that seamlessly to continue where I left off. There is a number of other ecosystem features, UI features, and other things that just work well between all my devices. I have generic headphones and ear pods. I prefer the security, frequent updates and a number of other features besides the premium build quality. I've compared the products to other products, and the vertical integration in CPU performance, battery performance, UI integration, user experience, updates and everything doesn't really put the price into any stratosphere that is unreasonable. In fact, feature for feature, they are priced pretty good. In the same vein, I don't really see Tesla as being expensive. The price of a Model 3 is on par with a BMW 3 series, and it is cheaper to operate over its life in terms of service and fuel. The Ioniq 5 is a cool car that is also $45k+, but it also doesn't have a lot of what the Tesla has, so again, the value of the Tesla seems to be on par and not bloated.

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Old 01-18-2023, 07:46 PM   #345
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That is your subjective opinion, but it is very, very far away from the objective reality of what the 1977 Honda Civic Wagon was versus what a Model 3 is today..
Well, yea, I basically said it was my opinion. All opinions, even those based somewhat on fact, are subjective.

Bottom line, most Tesla models break my first rule of premium/luxury models. It needs to have an instrument panel straight in front of me, not an iPad stuck to the dash. It needs to have real controls for things that you use every day, and it needs to not look like the generic definition of car.

All the "coolness factor" built into Tesla cars has one job, detract from what the remove from the cockpit and focus everyone on the software squirrels ("stalkless" turn signals, farting turn signals and waggling wings anyone?)

Also, everyone brings up the charging network. Well, OK, but its not an advantage to me because I'm not going to road trip an EV, at least not yet. It's a non-factor. Sure, if you are going "all in" on electric then it matters, otherwise you charge at home and it doesn't. If you can't charge at home, then don't buy an EV, or buy a Tesla.

Again my opinion only. Turns out since it's my opinion it's not wrong, for me.
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Old 01-18-2023, 08:03 PM   #346
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I think Toyota caved to the woke mob. I don't see ice going away anytime soon. Just turbo 4bangers with vvt systems that come apart every 100k.
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Old 01-18-2023, 08:48 PM   #347
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The base Model 3 is still premium by most standards.
I have sat in a lot of non-premium cars that are nicer than my parents 19' base Model 3. It's okay, but I wouldn't put it above a newer Camry or anything and I wouldn't call it premium. It's for sure above average but not special in any way. The seats are okay, the things you have to touch are okay, the materials feel mostly okay. I like how simplistic it is except for the stupid touchscreen.
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Old 01-19-2023, 01:17 AM   #348
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Well, yea, I basically said it was my opinion. All opinions, even those based somewhat on fact, are subjective.

Bottom line, most Tesla models break my first rule of premium/luxury models. It needs to have an instrument panel straight in front of me, not an iPad stuck to the dash. It needs to have real controls for things that you use every day, and it needs to not look like the generic definition of car.

All the "coolness factor" built into Tesla cars has one job, detract from what the remove from the cockpit and focus everyone on the software squirrels ("stalkless" turn signals, farting turn signals and waggling wings anyone?)

Also, everyone brings up the charging network. Well, OK, but its not an advantage to me because I'm not going to road trip an EV, at least not yet. It's a non-factor. Sure, if you are going "all in" on electric then it matters, otherwise you charge at home and it doesn't. If you can't charge at home, then don't buy an EV, or buy a Tesla.

Again my opinion only. Turns out since it's my opinion it's not wrong, for me.
You said there is absolutely nothing premium about the Model 3. What are some premium qualities or features you come to expect from a premium vehicle?

You said the 1977 Civic was more premium than a Model 3...because it has gauges in front of the driver and buttons? To each their own, but there is nothing inherently premium about buttons or stalks to me. They might be high on your priority list, but unless your priority list is something more than the interior of a Ford Fiesta then pretty much almost every car is a premium car by those standards. Those things can be nice when executed well, but they are also things that typically age poorly, either failing over time, wearing their surfaces from constant contact, and aging poorly over decades. While the spartan interior of the Model 3 isn't for everyone, like a Scandinavian Designs piece of furniture, it will age well. The UI on the giant tablet will change over time.

Really, the future is a bare interior with nothing but cup holders, a TV screen and swirling chairs for lounging and conversing, with the car on autopilot and the controls being entirely voiced.
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Old 01-19-2023, 02:06 AM   #349
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I have sat in a lot of non-premium cars that are nicer than my parents 19' base Model 3. It's okay, but I wouldn't put it above a newer Camry or anything and I wouldn't call it premium. It's for sure above average but not special in any way. The seats are okay, the things you have to touch are okay, the materials feel mostly okay. I like how simplistic it is except for the stupid touchscreen.
I feel like I've had this debate before, specifically with the Supra and 86. People were saying the Supra 2.0 wasn't premium, nor was there much difference in features, so I made a list:

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...3&postcount=36

I've done driving experiences in Lamborghinis, Ferraris, Aston Martins, Porsches, and been in every luxury brand. Defining what is premium is going to be different for everyone, but the reason premium and luxury brands are priced the way they are isn't just because a Bentley has an umbrella in the door when a Honda minivan has a vacuum in the rear panel. What a video on the obsession with Lexus engineers with the smallest things like how the windows close to make a perfect shut with the perfect sound, and you will see what CAN go into making a premium or luxury car. In general, the things that build value or which are used to set the price go into all the things that make it what it is. Like comparing a Cayman with the 911, people would be remissed to think the differences are just in the look of the interiors or the location of the powertrain. The amount of tech crammed into the 911 compared to the Cayman that is working behind the scenes is a similar difference between a Civic, the Model 3 or BMW 3 series and the Model S or BMW 7 series. There is a lot under the skin that people don't see as well. Watch a video of Monro tearing down a Tesla, and you see a lot more.

I can say that my wife's Q5 is far and above more premium than any VW Atlas or Honda CRV. It is immediately clear it is in a different class, but spend more time with it, and I find new easter eggs all the time. Whether or not the features matter to all buyers isn't really the point. It is the sum of all the little things that make these vehicles premium. For Tesla, the drivetrain and performance, the UI, the driving experience, the feature list, the building materials, etc all add to make it a premium vehicle over a Civic. On the surface, a Camry might not be much different than a Model 3 or ten year old Lambo interior in terms of superficial quality, but that is because you have to dig a little deeper. If anything, in a similar vein to what Dadhawk said, but in the reverse position, economy brands have gotten really good at increasing the look and feel of their interiors from afar and to give a sense of premium quality, but often it is only skin deep.


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Old 01-19-2023, 07:43 AM   #350
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You said there is absolutely nothing premium about the Model 3. What are some premium qualities or features you come to expect from a premium vehicle? .
Already explained and we're not going to convince each other otherwise, so moving on.

I will say what you describe as the future isn't an automobile. It's just transportation. The equivalent of riding in a moving living room. No thanks.
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