follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Delicious Tuning
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > 2nd Gens: GR86 and BRZ > GR86 General Topics (2nd Gen 2022+ Toyota 86)

GR86 General Topics (2nd Gen 2022+ Toyota 86) General topics for the GR86 second-gen 86


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-11-2023, 09:11 PM   #43
jeepmor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Drives: 84 CJ7, 08 Duramax, 2014 FRS
Location: Oregon
Posts: 478
Thanks: 338
Thanked 128 Times in 103 Posts
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I'll 30% disagree that cars aren't a good investment for making money. The cars of big number gains are out of the range most regular folks can afford, I will agree there. But there is a huge ebb and flow in the car market and requires a lot of tea leaf reading for sure, but there is money to be made. I don't think it's selling high dollar restored or restomod gems. Those enthusiasts are owners going to high end shops to restore/mod the car.

If it's a passion of the process, that's a little different and where I see the profit being most attainable for the regular working stiffs most of us are. I have a barber and a mailman that flip cars for a hobby. They don't do it exclusively for the money because they love to work on them and bring them back. The barber built a nice ford truck, added a 4 link, shortened the bed. Tons of serious mods. He did it with his son for the grandson, then went too far and made it too peppy to give to a teen like originally intended.

But they do make money reviving a vehicle they found for bottom dollar and put back in a good sorted working order and back into the market. But these guys like the build, once done, they never fall in love with the rig. They simply drive their revival and start hunting for a new project. The challenge/process is what they're after. They enjoy the rigs for a while, usually a few months, then sell them for seed money for another neglected good find.

The part I like of how they do this, is they often find a basket case and save it from crusher route. And once they build up their capital to better and better cars, they'll buy some niche rig in perfect condition from some literal grandma, enjoy it for a year, then just part with it and start another project.

So if that's the way to invest in cars and trucks, I'm game. Otherwise, I have no intention of building time capsules to be opened later. Love the premise, but don't have the room or coin to make those investments.
jeepmor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2023, 10:39 AM   #44
OkieSnuffBox
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Drives: '23 BRZ Limited
Location: OKC, OK
Posts: 1,983
Thanks: 658
Thanked 1,228 Times in 701 Posts
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spektyr View Post
Cars as an investment just aren't a smart choice. There are cases where they actually appreciate in value but those are fairly rare, and usually for cars in original condition (either maintained or restored).

The GR86/BRZ is made in too large of numbers to be rare, but is inexpensive enough that irresponsibility is more likely. If someone drops a quarter-million on a car it's safe to say they get the oil changed and drive it like it matters if they stay rubber-side down. Not all of them, of course, but a much higher percent. Our cars get driven hard, often by people who shouldn't and in places they shouldn't. In 30 years a pristine '22 could be rare.

And of course that alone doesn't make it valuable. On a global scale my toenail clippings are incredibly rare, but no one's lining up to buy them.

Factor in the cost of keeping a car in good condition or restoring it to that condition, inflation, etc... realistically the best you can really hope for is to break even. Cars just aren't good investments if the goal is to make money.

As far as the rest goes - yes, no one has solve the problem of perfect, affordable, reliable hydrogen conversion. That's kind of the point of what I'm saying - it's future stuff. If it were already solved it wouldn't be.

I think it's highly unlikely that there won't be at LEAST one option that keeps ICE cars on the road with minimal-to-no modification to run on something else. (The green-gas made by using solar power to build gasoline out of CO2 and water is pretty cool.)
Thank you for repeating what Tcoat and I already said.
__________________
"95% of the time, more throttle is the answer. 5% of the time, it ends the suspense."
OkieSnuffBox is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to OkieSnuffBox For This Useful Post:
Tcoat (01-12-2023), x808drifter (01-13-2023)
Old 01-12-2023, 10:55 AM   #45
Spektyr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2021
Drives: GR86
Location: Kansas
Posts: 323
Thanks: 168
Thanked 249 Times in 139 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepmor View Post
I'll 30% disagree that cars aren't a good investment for making money. The cars of big number gains are out of the range most regular folks can afford, I will agree there. But there is a huge ebb and flow in the car market and requires a lot of tea leaf reading for sure, but there is money to be made. I don't think it's selling high dollar restored or restomod gems. Those enthusiasts are owners going to high end shops to restore/mod the car.

If it's a passion of the process, that's a little different and where I see the profit being most attainable for the regular working stiffs most of us are. I have a barber and a mailman that flip cars for a hobby. They don't do it exclusively for the money because they love to work on them and bring them back. The barber built a nice ford truck, added a 4 link, shortened the bed. Tons of serious mods. He did it with his son for the grandson, then went too far and made it too peppy to give to a teen like originally intended.

But they do make money reviving a vehicle they found for bottom dollar and put back in a good sorted working order and back into the market. But these guys like the build, once done, they never fall in love with the rig. They simply drive their revival and start hunting for a new project. The challenge/process is what they're after. They enjoy the rigs for a while, usually a few months, then sell them for seed money for another neglected good find.

The part I like of how they do this, is they often find a basket case and save it from crusher route. And once they build up their capital to better and better cars, they'll buy some niche rig in perfect condition from some literal grandma, enjoy it for a year, then just part with it and start another project.

So if that's the way to invest in cars and trucks, I'm game. Otherwise, I have no intention of building time capsules to be opened later. Love the premise, but don't have the room or coin to make those investments.
That's a bit of a different animal than what we're looking at with the 2nd gens - you're not getting it cheap and bringing it back.

Even then, those calculations never account for hours. Leisure time has a dollar value greater than zero. Now if someone enjoys the work and all they want is to not lose money on the deal then the hours they spend restoring a car/truck are pure recreation and a break-even or even small profit is plenty of compensation.

But from a true accounting perspective, those hours should be billed commensurate to the mechanic's skill and factored into the sunk cost of the vehicle. That adds up FAST. The person fixing/selling the car is willing to take a loss on their labor because they enjoy it, but it's still a loss.

The cars that are "investments" are as you say, generally way outside the price range of average people. You need the perfect trifecta of something rare, something valuable enough to be difficult to attain, and something with iconic or cultural significance. Rarity, priced (at least) just out of reach of the common man, and some extra quality that makes it coveted. Those are the cars that set a pricing record each time they change hands. The reason expense is important is that small percent change in buying/selling price has to be applied to a number large enough that the difference in price exceeds the cost of keeping the car in good working order. Which the necessary rarity works against.

I had a 1982 Honda Accord given to me by my grandparents in 2006 with about 76k miles on the odometer. Not once did I see another one on the road. (Saw an '83, a few 84's, etc.) It ran beautifully and my wife and I put about another 15k on it before we sold it.

Ultimately we sold it because it was incredibly difficult to keep it running. There wasn't anything wrong with it really, but simple tune-ups and maintenance required specialists (fellow grey-hairs) who still remembered the pre-ECU days. Some toddler working at Autozone acted like I'd asked him for a leprechaun when I said I wanted to buy some vacuum hose.

We got a good deal for it on the sale, but even though it was rare it wasn't expensive enough to appreciate faster than maintenance costs added up, and it lacked the "special something" needed to start adding zeroes to the price driven by demand.
Spektyr is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Spektyr For This Useful Post:
soundman98 (01-12-2023), Tcoat (01-12-2023), x808drifter (01-13-2023)
Old 01-12-2023, 11:20 AM   #46
Marrk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Drives: Honda Fit
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,004
Thanks: 722
Thanked 125 Times in 90 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spektyr View Post
I think there's a fairly good chance that alternate fuels will exist in 10-20 years that are fairly easy to convert old gasoline engines to...
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex87f View Post
BMW tried to make conventional engines work with hydrogen years ago, to no avail, despite putting tens of prototypes on the road. And that's an OEM, with a lot of resources and a vested interest in saving ICEs where they hold a comparative advantage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceAddict View Post
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/t...stion-concept/

https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/liq...oyota/8556781/

And it sounds acceptable too:

I'll keep this brief because I do not wish to drag this thread too far off topic.

1) The problem with ICE cars is the fuel, not the cars.

2) EV is the wrong answer to that problem.

3) A new fuel is the correct answer to the problem.

4) Nobody has to buy a new car. They just have to fill up at a different fuel station.

5) A new fuel in ICE cars = massive savings in cost for the consumer (see #4).

6) A new fuel in ICE cars = massive reduction of damage to the environment (although not necessarily reduction to zero damage).

7) The boy genius in not a genius. He's just a tech nerd manufacturing electric cars.

Okay, that wasn't brief enough. I apologize.
Marrk is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Marrk For This Useful Post:
Tcoat (01-12-2023)
Old 01-12-2023, 11:40 AM   #47
Tcoat
Senior Member
 
Tcoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 2020 Hakone
Location: London, Ont
Posts: 69,845
Thanks: 61,656
Thanked 108,283 Times in 46,456 Posts
Mentioned: 2494 Post(s)
Tagged: 50 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spektyr View Post
That's a bit of a different animal than what we're looking at with the 2nd gens - you're not getting it cheap and bringing it back.

Even then, those calculations never account for hours. Leisure time has a dollar value greater than zero. Now if someone enjoys the work and all they want is to not lose money on the deal then the hours they spend restoring a car/truck are pure recreation and a break-even or even small profit is plenty of compensation.

But from a true accounting perspective, those hours should be billed commensurate to the mechanic's skill and factored into the sunk cost of the vehicle. That adds up FAST. The person fixing/selling the car is willing to take a loss on their labor because they enjoy it, but it's still a loss.

The cars that are "investments" are as you say, generally way outside the price range of average people. You need the perfect trifecta of something rare, something valuable enough to be difficult to attain, and something with iconic or cultural significance. Rarity, priced (at least) just out of reach of the common man, and some extra quality that makes it coveted. Those are the cars that set a pricing record each time they change hands. The reason expense is important is that small percent change in buying/selling price has to be applied to a number large enough that the difference in price exceeds the cost of keeping the car in good working order. Which the necessary rarity works against.

I had a 1982 Honda Accord given to me by my grandparents in 2006 with about 76k miles on the odometer. Not once did I see another one on the road. (Saw an '83, a few 84's, etc.) It ran beautifully and my wife and I put about another 15k on it before we sold it.

Ultimately we sold it because it was incredibly difficult to keep it running. There wasn't anything wrong with it really, but simple tune-ups and maintenance required specialists (fellow grey-hairs) who still remembered the pre-ECU days. Some toddler working at Autozone acted like I'd asked him for a leprechaun when I said I wanted to buy some vacuum hose.

We got a good deal for it on the sale, but even though it was rare it wasn't expensive enough to appreciate faster than maintenance costs added up, and it lacked the "special something" needed to start adding zeroes to the price driven by demand.
Until about 2010 I was one of those guys that would haul an old hulk out of a barn or field, fix it up to roadworthy again, drive it a while and then sell it. Most of my cars were between 25 and 40 years old. These were DDs not show pieces. I never made a penny on any of them.
__________________
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar, because Racecar.
Tcoat is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Tcoat For This Useful Post:
soundman98 (01-12-2023), Spektyr (01-12-2023), x808drifter (01-13-2023)
Old 01-12-2023, 03:29 PM   #48
alex87f
Meow
 
alex87f's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Drives: GT86, Volvo 996
Location: France
Posts: 532
Thanks: 312
Thanked 444 Times in 236 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marrk View Post
I'll keep this brief because I do not wish to drag this thread too far off topic.

1) The problem with ICE cars is the fuel, not the cars.

2) EV is the wrong answer to that problem.

3) A new fuel is the correct answer to the problem.

4) Nobody has to buy a new car. They just have to fill up at a different fuel station.

5) A new fuel in ICE cars = massive savings in cost for the consumer (see #4).

6) A new fuel in ICE cars = massive reduction of damage to the environment (although not necessarily reduction to zero damage).

7) The boy genius in not a genius. He's just a tech nerd manufacturing electric cars.

Okay, that wasn't brief enough. I apologize.
I'd like a source on most of that. As I pointed out in an earlier post:
-you cannot solve the local pollution of ICEs using another fuel (at least not an octane-based one, don't know about hydrogen)
-you cannot solve the low efficiency of ICEs (which is capped at around 40%) using another fuel. Although any fuel that lowers the combustion temp will increase efficiency, you're still running an un-optimized heat pump to produce movement. See Carnot's law.
-finally, the economics of synth fuels or hydrogen just don't work -yet-

At the end of the day, we're comparing a tech that very much works and is hitting the market with fairly good success (and less and less government incentives), with another one that's been in the pipes for decades but hasn't been made into a marketable product yet.

By the time we find a suitable fuel to "save" ICEs -if that's even viable-, improvements to fuel cells and EVs will likely have created a gap too large to justify using ICEs.

I agree with your statement that people should just keep their cars longer (ICE or EV, for that matter), but it is what it is. Apparently, most people would rather keep up with the Joneses.
alex87f is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to alex87f For This Useful Post:
Marrk (01-12-2023)
Old 01-12-2023, 03:52 PM   #49
Marrk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Drives: Honda Fit
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,004
Thanks: 722
Thanked 125 Times in 90 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex87f View Post
I'd like a source on most of that.
The fuel that I have in mind hasn't been invented yet. I'm dreaming a dream. The person who ultimately invents it will be the real boy genius.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alex87f View Post
At the end of the day, we're comparing a tech that very much works and is hitting the market with fairly good success
You are talking about a technology that is dependent upon batteries, rare earth minerals, planet destroying sourcing operations, huge expense, vicious international competition and politicization. By the way, how you gonna recycle that pretty little Tesla battery?

Sports cars for me are all about power-to-weight. Have you noticed that EV batteries are kinda heavy? Until they invent an EV battery that is the size of an iPhone battery, I'm not interested.
Marrk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2023, 04:05 PM   #50
alex87f
Meow
 
alex87f's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Drives: GT86, Volvo 996
Location: France
Posts: 532
Thanks: 312
Thanked 444 Times in 236 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marrk View Post
The fuel that I have in mind hasn't been invented yet. I'm dreaming a dream. The person who ultimately invents it will be the real boy genius.



You are talking about a technology that is dependent upon batteries, rare earth minerals, planet destroying sourcing operations, huge expense, vicious international competition and politicization. By the way, how you gonna recycle that pretty little Tesla battery?

Sports cars for me are all about power-to-weight. Have you noticed that EV batteries are kinda heavy? Until they invent an EV battery that is the size of an iPhone battery, I'm not interested.
Gonna play devil's advocate by saying the bolded part applies just as much (if not more) to fossil fuel production.

And unlike battery elements that have a shot at being recycled, it's hard to recycle burnt fuel so you must keep making more.

On the weight part, well we're living in a world where an M3 weighs 4 000lbs in its lightest variant, so I'd say that ship sailed some time ago.
alex87f is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to alex87f For This Useful Post:
Marrk (01-12-2023)
Old 01-12-2023, 07:47 PM   #51
Marrk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Drives: Honda Fit
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,004
Thanks: 722
Thanked 125 Times in 90 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex87f View Post
On the weight part, well we're living in a world where an M3 weighs 4 000lbs in its lightest variant, so I'd say that ship sailed some time ago.
The M3 is not my benchmark for anything. I don't care if it weighs 2,000 lbs.

I thought you would be amused to hear that the Hummer battery (just the battery) weights 2923 lbs. That's a biscuit more than a GR86.

I agree with you that we have a ways to go. However, I think we could have done more, and done better, during this interim period between now and zero emissions, by doing something other than EVs.

Again, I apologize to the forum for shamelessly wandering off topic.
Marrk is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Marrk For This Useful Post:
alex87f (01-13-2023)
Old 01-13-2023, 02:53 AM   #52
alex87f
Meow
 
alex87f's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Drives: GT86, Volvo 996
Location: France
Posts: 532
Thanks: 312
Thanked 444 Times in 236 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marrk View Post
The M3 is not my benchmark for anything. I don't care if it weighs 2,000 lbs.

I thought you would be amused to hear that the Hummer battery (just the battery) weights 2923 lbs. That's a biscuit more than a GR86.

I agree with you that we have a ways to go. However, I think we could have done more, and done better, during this interim period between now and zero emissions, by doing something other than EVs.

Again, I apologize to the forum for shamelessly wandering off topic.
Oh yeah that's on off-topic if I've ever seen one, and we're both guilty

That said, on the hummer front, the $6K taillight is also a sign of what's wrong with the car industry...

... and LED headlamps are really expensive on the GR86, too.

/backontopic
alex87f is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2023, 11:49 AM   #53
Tcoat
Senior Member
 
Tcoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 2020 Hakone
Location: London, Ont
Posts: 69,845
Thanks: 61,656
Thanked 108,283 Times in 46,456 Posts
Mentioned: 2494 Post(s)
Tagged: 50 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marrk View Post

Again, I apologize to the forum for shamelessly wandering off topic.
As the thread title is a completely rhetorical question I don't think anything would really be off topic.
__________________
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar, because Racecar.
Tcoat is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Tcoat For This Useful Post:
Marrk (01-13-2023)
Old 01-13-2023, 12:15 PM   #54
alex87f
Meow
 
alex87f's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Drives: GT86, Volvo 996
Location: France
Posts: 532
Thanks: 312
Thanked 444 Times in 236 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Then I’ll post this: Toyota Reveals Two AE86 Concepts With Hydrogen Combustion And Electric Power https://carbuzz.com/news/toyota-reve...electric-power
alex87f is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2023, 12:56 PM   #55
NoHaveMSG
Senior Member
 
NoHaveMSG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Drives: Crapcan
Location: Oregon
Posts: 11,118
Thanks: 18,090
Thanked 16,253 Times in 7,346 Posts
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marrk View Post
The fuel that I have in mind hasn't been invented yet. I'm dreaming a dream. The person who ultimately invents it will be the real boy genius.

Carbon capture is already out there and shown as viable. But it is expensive, is net-ish zero, and not easily available.
__________________
"Experience is the hardest kind of teacher. It gives you the test first and the lesson afterward." -Oscar Wilde.
NoHaveMSG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2023, 01:02 PM   #56
Tcoat
Senior Member
 
Tcoat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Drives: 2020 Hakone
Location: London, Ont
Posts: 69,845
Thanks: 61,656
Thanked 108,283 Times in 46,456 Posts
Mentioned: 2494 Post(s)
Tagged: 50 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex87f View Post
Then I’ll post this: Toyota Reveals Two AE86 Concepts With Hydrogen Combustion And Electric Power https://carbuzz.com/news/toyota-reve...electric-power
Toyota revels two cars that look like AE86s.
__________________
Racecar spelled backwards is Racecar, because Racecar.
Tcoat is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
MK3 / A70 Toyota Supra appeciation thread bestwheelbase Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions 81 04-09-2020 06:44 PM
Titan Supra Competes at Texas Invitational - Supra is still competitive Video Titanmotorsports Off-Topic Lounge [WARNING: NO POLITICS] 0 05-20-2014 11:53 AM
what would be a better buy new frs or used mk4 supra supramaster12 Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 81 02-28-2013 02:47 PM
Is that a supra? post_break Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 26 01-22-2013 05:58 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.