Who needs a Supra?

[jeepmor]

Originally Posted by BRZ549

Not sure how many were allotted but....

"Toyota sold 11,136 GR86 in 2022. (From Jan - Nov 2022)"

Source: https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/toyota/gr86

That's all sold, oye. What are overall platform numbers with BRZ mixed in there?

Best go grab one people, those numbers will make them rare gems soon, and halt production because it no longer pays the bills of a factory.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

I don't think that's why people dismissed Toyota.
It simply didn't have what car enthusiasts wanted in their lineup?
Except for what some considered a rebadged Subaru model; and in the US that didn't even have a Toyota badge on it.
That's what changed — now it covers more enthusiast market segments.

Few people dismiss Porsche for making Cayennes and Macans.
Make jokes about it? More people

Exactly.

In 2007 when the Prius was released, what sporty car did Toyota have in the lineup? People were upset because they had made so many great enthusiast cars in the past and then stopped.

Originally Posted by jeepmor

That's all sold, oye. What are overall platform numbers with BRZ mixed in there?

Best go grab one people, those numbers will make them rare gems soon, and halt production because it no longer pays the bills of a factory.

Huh? Me thinks you've been hitting the bottle a little hard.

A car like the E30 M3, with a massive racing pedigree, took decades to become as valuable as they are now. And this is a car that only 5-6k were imported between 1988-1991.

Not a car produced by the literal tens of thousands.

[jeepmor]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

Huh? Me thinks you've been hitting the bottle a little hard.

A car like the E30 M3, with a massive racing pedigree, took decades to become as valuable as they are now. And this is a car that only 5-6k were imported between 1988-1991.

Not a car produced by the literal tens of thousands.

Isn't that the way a condescending prick would say it, I think so. I didn't say they'd rise fast, just that they have the low numbers to rise when the time comes and all the young guys going through them now want to revisit them in their middle age or retirement. It'll happen, plenty of examples of similar size sporty cars. I don't give two shits about racing heritage.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by jeepmor

Isn't that the way a condescending prick would say it, I think so. I didn't say they'd rise fast, just that they have the low numbers to rise when the time comes and all the young guys going through them now want to revisit them in their middle age or retirement. It'll happen, plenty of examples of similar size sporty cars. I don't give two shits about racing heritage.

They aren't low numbers. Toyota sold twice the number of GR's in 2022 than Nissan has sold GT-R's since they were released in 2007.

They're cheap, fun sports cars. They aren't anything special and the production numbers are so high, maybe they will be worth more than MSRP in 30 years?

I love when you guys get wound up over nothing. Smoke a joint, have a drink, take a Xanax and stop taking this stuff so seriously. None of us are getting out alive.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

They aren't low numbers. Toyota sold twice the number of GR's in 2022 than Nissan has sold GT-R's since they were released in 2007.

They're cheap, fun sports cars. They aren't anything special and the production numbers are so high, maybe they will be worth more than MSRP in 30 years?

I love when you guys get wound up over nothing. Smoke a joint, have a drink, take a Xanax and stop taking this stuff so seriously. None of us are getting out alive.

But dude it is such a cool car EVERYBODY will pay top dollar in 30 years!

If you buy one new, store it away without putting miles on it, maintain it regularly, in a climate controlled critter fee environment, and in general throw money at it then in 30 years you may get MSRP fo it. When you factor in 30 years worth of inflation, storage and maintenance costs that means you will lose your shirt on the deal. Your only hope is that it stars in an action movie about street racers that hijack trucks and that will force the value way up as every kid that has never actually driven one will pay top dollar because it is the greatest car ever made!

At this point in history discussing the collectability of ICE cars in 30 years is pretty much a moot point anyway. In 30 years from now your 2023 GR86 that you stored away will probably be allowed to run on certain roads on holidays and weekends and the gas you have to buy from the specialty shop in your city will be $100 a gallon. The days of "I wanted a 68 Chevelle SS back when they were new and I was a teenager that couldn't afford it and now am a rich 70 year old so I am going to buy one are over.

[Spektyr]

I think there's a fairly good chance that alternate fuels will exist in 10-20 years that are fairly easy to convert old gasoline engines to.

Hydrogen, for example, isn't terribly complicated to implement in a modern motor. (By no means practical today, but it's feasible it will get easier down the road.) And then there's things like Porsche's new solar fuel generators that may or may not be practical as-is, but are at least a strong contender for "green" ICE fuel with additional innovation.

They make a bolt-in kit for old muscle cars that converts a Tesla electric motor to bolt right up to a V8's motor mounts. Certainly not the noise I want coming out of a Chevelle, but I think the sheer power will satisfy a lot of people. And you'd have plenty of extra space under the hood for a loudspeaker playing dynamic motor noises if you really want to have that noise. (I think it'd be weird, but I can guarantee you someone's going to do that if they haven't already.)

Basically what I'm saying is that I doubt the human race and the car enthusiast culture specifically will fail to solve the problem of how to keep our beloved flammable-fuel vehicles on the road. And there's also the whole problem of solving how to keep 100% of the cars on the road charged with a power grid wholly inadequate to do so. Until that's solved we NEED internal combustion to hang around.

[RaceAddict]

Originally Posted by Spektyr

And you'd have plenty of extra space under the hood for a loudspeaker playing dynamic motor noises if you really want to have that noise. (I think it'd be weird, but I can guarantee you someone's going to do that if they haven't already.)

Borla is already on the case: https://www.borla.com/products/activ...tric-vehicles/

(That's the internal speaker version, but I'm sure an external version will follow. )

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Spektyr

I think there's a fairly good chance that alternate fuels will exist in 10-20 years that are fairly easy to convert old gasoline engines to.

Hydrogen, for example, isn't terribly complicated to implement in a modern motor. (By no means practical today, but it's feasible it will get easier down the road.) And then there's things like Porsche's new solar fuel generators that may or may not be practical as-is, but are at least a strong contender for "green" ICE fuel with additional innovation.

They make a bolt-in kit for old muscle cars that converts a Tesla electric motor to bolt right up to a V8's motor mounts. Certainly not the noise I want coming out of a Chevelle, but I think the sheer power will satisfy a lot of people. And you'd have plenty of extra space under the hood for a loudspeaker playing dynamic motor noises if you really want to have that noise. (I think it'd be weird, but I can guarantee you someone's going to do that if they haven't already.)

Basically what I'm saying is that I doubt the human race and the car enthusiast culture specifically will fail to solve the problem of how to keep our beloved flammable-fuel vehicles on the road. And there's also the whole problem of solving how to keep 100% of the cars on the road charged with a power grid wholly inadequate to do so. Until that's solved we NEED internal combustion to hang around.

Oh no doubt it 30 years there will be infrastructure in place to meet the needs. Yes the cars can and will be fitted with something that can keep them on the road but they will not be the way they are now. The point being that as they are built now hoping to gain value no matter how long is a losing proposition.
A retrofitted electric, hydrogen, or unicorn dust powered 86 is just going to be a car that is not an 86 any more than a Tesla powered Chevelle SS is a Chevelle SS. You just have cars that look like what they were.
Waxing a bit philosophical here I know

[alex87f]

Originally Posted by Spektyr

I think there's a fairly good chance that alternate fuels will exist in 10-20 years that are fairly easy to convert old gasoline engines to.

Hydrogen, for example, isn't terribly complicated to implement in a modern motor. (By no means practical today, but it's feasible it will get easier down the road.) And then there's things like Porsche's new solar fuel generators that may or may not be practical as-is, but are at least a strong contender for "green" ICE fuel with additional innovation.

They make a bolt-in kit for old muscle cars that converts a Tesla electric motor to bolt right up to a V8's motor mounts. Certainly not the noise I want coming out of a Chevelle, but I think the sheer power will satisfy a lot of people. And you'd have plenty of extra space under the hood for a loudspeaker playing dynamic motor noises if you really want to have that noise. (I think it'd be weird, but I can guarantee you someone's going to do that if they haven't already.)

Basically what I'm saying is that I doubt the human race and the car enthusiast culture specifically will fail to solve the problem of how to keep our beloved flammable-fuel vehicles on the road. And there's also the whole problem of solving how to keep 100% of the cars on the road charged with a power grid wholly inadequate to do so. Until that's solved we NEED internal combustion to hang around.

BMW tried to make conventional engines work with hydrogen years ago, to no avail, despite putting tens of prototypes on the road. And that's an OEM, with a lot of resources and a vested interest in saving ICEs where they hold a comparative advantage.

Other alternative fuels may solve the CO2 part of the equation by being produced sustainably, but they cannot solve the local pollution issue. An ICE creates nocive byproducts as it doesn't burn pure octane with pure oxygen. The air the motor breathes contains other elements that react in the engine, and so does the fuel it burns. Synthetic fuels don't solve that, or at least not completely.

It's likely most petrolheads will switch to EV when the time comes. And the last remaining dinosaurs will keep driving their ICEs using dino juice or ethanol, probably purchased at a high price from a greatly scaled-down fuel supply chain.

As far as the grid, it's not a fixed part of the equation. It can grow, it can be made smarter, and it can be relieved in some areas (for example, better housing insulation creates electrical capacity for BEVs).

Not saying EVs will solve EVERYTHING, but they're here to stay. The sustainable fuel argument is used by enthusiasts as a joker of some sorts, but there likely ain't much to it. Especially if you can't afford to pay $10, 20 or 30/gal.

[RaceAddict]

Originally Posted by alex87f

BMW tried to make conventional engines work with hydrogen years ago, to no avail, despite putting tens of prototypes on the road. And that's an OEM, with a lot of resources and a vested interest in saving ICEs where they hold a comparative advantage.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/t...stion-concept/

this car uses the 1.6-liter turbocharged inline-3 combustion engine from the GR Corolla, which has been modified to use compressed hydrogen instead of gasoline. So, it still follows the same combustion cycle as a gas engine -- fuel and air enter the cylinder, is compressed, then ignited, then removed -- just with a different fuel.

https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/liq...oyota/8556781/

And it sounds acceptable too:

[alex87f]

Originally Posted by RaceAddict

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/t...stion-concept/



https://www.hydrogenfuelnews.com/liq...oyota/8556781/

And it sounds acceptable too:

Yeah, there’s that one too.
They do work, as BMW proved some years ago. But being made into reliable, cost efficient and marketable products is not something we’ve seen yet.

Then there’s the whole question of their efficiency compared to a fuel cell. ICEs are inherently limited by the (second?) law of thermodynamics. While fuel cells aren’t. How many people are going to buy the noisy, inefficient and complex powertrain, especially when it uses twice as much of an expensive fuel (equivalent to around $15/ga)?

[jeepmor]

Sorry for my rude comment, I was out of line. I gather I just have too much adoration for these cars and it's given me some significantly rosy glasses. Tcoat lays out a good example of keeping one preserved, not a trivial process to pull off for decades.

[Spektyr]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Oh no doubt it 30 years there will be infrastructure in place to meet the needs. Yes the cars can and will be fitted with something that can keep them on the road but they will not be the way they are now. The point being that as they are built now hoping to gain value no matter how long is a losing proposition.
A retrofitted electric, hydrogen, or unicorn dust powered 86 is just going to be a car that is not an 86 any more than a Tesla powered Chevelle SS is a Chevelle SS. You just have cars that look like what they were.
Waxing a bit philosophical here I know

Cars as an investment just aren't a smart choice. There are cases where they actually appreciate in value but those are fairly rare, and usually for cars in original condition (either maintained or restored).

The GR86/BRZ is made in too large of numbers to be rare, but is inexpensive enough that irresponsibility is more likely. If someone drops a quarter-million on a car it's safe to say they get the oil changed and drive it like it matters if they stay rubber-side down. Not all of them, of course, but a much higher percent. Our cars get driven hard, often by people who shouldn't and in places they shouldn't. In 30 years a pristine '22 could be rare.

And of course that alone doesn't make it valuable. On a global scale my toenail clippings are incredibly rare, but no one's lining up to buy them.

Factor in the cost of keeping a car in good condition or restoring it to that condition, inflation, etc... realistically the best you can really hope for is to break even. Cars just aren't good investments if the goal is to make money.

As far as the rest goes - yes, no one has solve the problem of perfect, affordable, reliable hydrogen conversion. That's kind of the point of what I'm saying - it's future stuff. If it were already solved it wouldn't be.

I think it's highly unlikely that there won't be at LEAST one option that keeps ICE cars on the road with minimal-to-no modification to run on something else. (The green-gas made by using solar power to build gasoline out of CO2 and water is pretty cool.)

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Spektyr

On a global scale my toenail clippings are incredibly rare, but no one's lining up to buy them.