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Old 07-11-2019, 02:43 PM   #15
Tristor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WC-BRZ View Post
Since you're definitely the loudest person in this thread, I figured we'd get your thoughts on twin tube vs.
a monotube design?

You seem to be riding the RCE and CSG FLA train pretty hard - almost to a point of insane fandom? All of this based on what? A three-piece design vs. two-piece and the rambling regarding shock cartridges?

Are you able to provide more in depth details as to how a two-piece vs. three-piece is superior to the other? Are you able to also provide any data or any type of quantitative and conclusive data as to why/how a shock cartridge from KW is better than the ones from, let's say, fortune auto?

I'm not sure saying "well, one manufacturer has a bespoke design per application so it's actually better than the other universal part". We already got that part - just looking for some sort of conclusive data that can drive these points home so to speak.

I'm not riding any train, nor do I have the appropriate equipment/resources to gather the data you're asking for (which is really more extensive than you might realize). But again, it's the Internet, you don't need to take my word for it. There are massive amounts of resources online to research suspension and shock design. This isn't anything novel or unique that I'm saying here.


But in short:


Twin-Tube vs Monotube: Monotube has the advantage of a larger diameter piston and a single valve which can result in faster damping response and less likelihood of fluid foaming under higher pressures. Monotubes also have higher oil capacity which directly contributes to having a higher thermal capacity and typically better heat dissipation. Depending on specific design some twin-tube dampers can be nearly as good as a quality monotube, but generally speaking monotubes are superior to twin tubes. I'd take a high quality twin-tube (like a KW V3) over a lower quality monotube (BC Racing RM), any day of the week and twice on Sunday, but at the higher end a monotube is going to have superior performance to a twin-tube. In the end, though, this differential even for most club racing users isn't as significant as other factors.



2-piece vs 3-piece design: Overall strut length is critically important to suspension geometry and is more important than stroke length. A 3-piece design is cheaper to manufacturer, but the primary marketing reason for saying it's good is that it allows you to maintain the same stroke length by adjusting height separately from "preload". Stroke length is only important insofar as its sufficient to perform the necessary damping, and does not affect suspension geometry.


Application-specific design vs Universal design: This should be basic common sense, but something designed specifically for your platform application and then tuned to your specific use case will perform better than something designed for low-cost mass production. Universal designs are basically universally mediocre/bad. In a very real way, good suspension design starts with tires, sprung and unsprung mass, aero, and driving environment. This is what I mean by "specific use case". Tying into the above, both optimal stroke length and optimal overall strut length are platform (and to some degree use case) specific.


Conclusive data is something you aren't going to be able to get for free... actual motorsports teams spend serious money to develop their suspension strategy including purchasing and testing different offerings. I don't have the data or resources you're asking for, and you'll be hard pressed to find them anywhere. You do what you want with your money, but you're wasting it buying garbage. I'm not really sure why you're getting so defensive about basic factual statements about suspension.


As far as "fanboyism" goes, I have no specific commitment to either RCE (although as a disclosure I personally own and run on track the RCE Tarmac 2s) or CSG, except to recommend them BECAUSE they are building and tuning suspension specifically for our platform and are actively involved in motorsport-based R&D using this platform. If you had a different car, there'd be other companies which offer better choices for that different platform. Both companies have a serious commitment to both this platform/community and the necessary R&D know-how to design appropriate suspension components.


You should watch the video I linked, the guy in it is primarily a Miata dude and recommends for instance the 949 Racing/SuperMiata Xida. Application-specific, with valving to match spring rates, which are chosen by tire. More road racing national champions driving Miatas have won on Xidas than any other coilover (they're heavily used in Miata classes in both NASA and SCCA road racing events as well as in SCCA Solo). RCE / CSG are providing a similar service for our platform, in that they are developing application specific components.


I'd encourage anyone who is going to spend money modifying their car to do some actual serious research about the components and the engineering behind it before buying and installing those mods. I'd also encourage them to actually go out and get some driver's education and drive their car hard on the track (or canyon, autocross, what have you) before modifying it so you can know for yourself from both an intellectual and driver feel perspective what effect your modifications have for the money you spent.



No need to get defensive. My advice is opinionated and to the point, because I've done the research. I highly encourage you to do the research also. To clarify, reading a manufacturer's website marketing materials does not qualify as research. We all operate on a budget, but that doesn't mean we should operate on a "budget". I would have loved to have Penskes on my car, but I can't justify almost $9k for coilovers when I have other suspension work to be done, so I compromised in my budget to get the RCE Tarmac 2s. There is no amount of compromise that would ever see me trade my factory dampers (which are pretty high quality Showas) for coilovers from Raceland or BC Racing.

Last edited by Tristor; 07-11-2019 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 07-11-2019, 06:41 PM   #16
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I wonder why RCE never made the black springs for our cars...
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Old 07-12-2019, 09:32 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norcalpb View Post
I wonder why RCE never made the black springs for our cars...
With the Yellows and the Tarmac springs, we weren't sure if a "regular guy" RCE black mild drop and mild rate spring had a place in the market or our lineup. The Yellows are already a mild drop for some people!

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Old 07-12-2019, 10:23 AM   #18
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But for some, any drop is too low, and some look into strut spacers, rally trd shocks and so on . Though certainly, as much as voting with wallet counts, they are probably outnumbered by lowering crowd more then 10 if not 100 times.
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