FRS vs Camaro Handling

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Have you driven the latest incarnation of a Camaro? They are very nimble. The size and weight is way down and very deceiving when you just look at the numbers.

500 lbs heavier is still 500 lbs heavier, it's not breaking the laws of phsyics, at the limit the 86 still has an advantage.

But as above, you put them through similar paces, stock for stock, the Camaro will pull just as many (if not more) g's through a corner. I won't deny that it's a performer in all scenarios.

Originally Posted by Dougboy

A 1LE will beat an M3. Can an 86 beat an M3?

I've seen lots of 86's put down faster times and pass all kinds of M3's. I've also seen an E36 set fast time of the day. IMO that's a silly way to phrase it.

Yes, objectively speaking the 1LE is a faster car. Can you huck it into a corner as hard as an 86? I'm doubtful.

[LOLS2K]

Meh, it's all a d!ck swinging contest. I bet the "My friend has a FRS/BRZ/86, and insists that it will handle better than my new Camaro. What are your thoughts folks?" thread is on and poppin over on the Camaro forum.
We all have pride in our ride.

[Twinz]

I drove an FS-prepped 18' SS at our last local event. I was impressed, but I prefer my CS FRS's handling.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

500 lbs heavier is still 500 lbs heavier, it's not breaking the laws of phsyics, at the limit the 86 still has an advantage.

But as above, you put them through similar paces, stock for stock, the Camaro will pull just as many (if not more) g's through a corner. I won't deny that it's a performer in all scenarios.

.

I was not saying it is light just lighter than they have been. Certainly was not implying it weighed the same as an 86.


The implication I was replying too was that the Camaro was not "nimble" which it most certainly is now.

[glamcem]

I own a '17 Camaro SS 1LE and used to own, modified and tracked the BRZ stock 1LE outhandles my highly modified BRZ which is expected I think. They're very different cars and weight transfer on those cars are also very different (duh ..2700 lbs vs 3700 lbs) but other than that 1LE has the upper hand in every metrics you can think of and even with the R comps that will be still noticeable .

I will create an extensive review comparing my Rotrex BRZ vs S2000 (track build) and '17 1LE .

below is taken from MT:


Mclaren 570S tested @ $219,000 MSRP
23.0 seconds @ .93 g average Motor Trend figure eight course
1.04 g lateral acceleration
Braking 60mph to 0 in 97 ft

Mustang GT 350R (their track beast) tested @ $67,000 MSRP
23.3 seconds @ .87 g average Motor Trend figure eight course
1.08 g lateral acceleration
Braking 60mph to 0 in 101 ft

Porsche Carrera S tested @ $140,000 MSRP
23.1 seconds @ .91 g average Motor Trend figure eight course
1.05 g lateral acceleration
Braking 60mph to 0 in 97 ft

Camaro SS 1LE tested @ $45,700 MSRP
23.3 seconds @ .86 g average Motor Trend figure eight course
1.09 g lateral acceleration
Braking 60mph to 0 in 94 ft

FRS tested @ $28,000 MSRP
26.2 seconds @.68 g average Motor Trend figure eight course
.90 g lateral acceleration
Braking 60mph to 0 in 120 ft.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by DIF

My friend just bought a Camaro SS 1LE, and insists it will handle better than an FRS/BRZ/86. What are your thoughts folks?

Definitely better.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by glamcem

stock 1LE outhandles my highly modified BRZ which is expected I think.

Actually I'd be surprised if a BRZ on proper track tires/coilovers/alignment/BBK couldn't outhandle a stock 1LE. Don't they come with Eagle F1 Supercar 3's? Pretty surprising. Would love to see data if you have it.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Actually I'd be surprised if a BRZ on proper track tires/coilovers/alignment/BBK couldn't outhandle a stock 1LE. Don't they come with Eagle F1 Supercar 3's? Pretty surprising. Would love to see data if you have it.

why is it surprising ? In stock form, 1LE can keep up with all the cars that I mentioned above. MT provided all the metrics in figure 8 course and their testings are very scientific.

My speed in tight corners were about the same with BRZ but I didn't get a chance to fully open and use the potential of the 1LE just yet. The first event I've attended to was an instructor training event and I didn't really have any clean laps yet. Even with that I matched my BRZs lap times with the Supercharger. Keep in mind we're comparing G3 street tires to real R comps with 40 Treadwear rating. 1LE will definitely be faster on longer turns so the only place that I would think a BRZ had an advantage would be tight corners and 1LE was not slower! I think MT comment on saying "the new 1LE feels like a bigger stronger Miata" is very true. However, I have to admit I was also surprised with the handling abilities because of the weight difference.

It's very clear that those huge 305 tires, sophisticated Magne Ride suspension with E-Diff is really working.

For the reference, I had -3.0 camber all around with coilovers, Hankook Z214 R comps (245/40/17 all around) with RPF1 tires and ST43 brakes on my BRZ. I tested both cars in the same tracks and similar conditions. I could easily tell the difference in handling and the amount of G (even with the stockers on the 1LE) was better.

This is the instructor/flagger training event that I didn't really have any clean lap (in the video you will see what I am talking about )

Bone stock with ST43 pads. I wasn't even trying and almost did my personal best

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXmUuKgV-lY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXmUuKgV-lY[/ame]


and this is my very best lap at the same track with the BRZ (fully modded with Z214s):

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIgpo7q_6GI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIgpo7q_6GI[/ame]

This is the other track :

ST43s and Trofeo R 305s on the 1LE. I did my personal best and only had a few clean laps due to traffic and cancellations that day. I also had some hiccup issues due to some wiring which I fixed that later. Tons of room to improve:


[ame="http://youtu.be/n1qoltSNL44"]http://youtu.be/n1qoltSNL44[/ame]

Same track with my BRZ:
[ame="http://youtu.be/D-mPfYoUFns"]http://youtu.be/D-mPfYoUFns[/ame]


I still have the temp tags on the car and attended a couple events already. So the gap will be definitely bigger after I get used to new car and get closer to its limits (not suggesting I can ever fully reach the true potential of the car like Randy Pobst .. lol) I will report back

Here's my build thread on the 1LE forums for those who might be interested:

http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=487124

[funwheeldrive]

1LE uses magnets which are pretty much black magic in the automotive world.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

1LE uses magnets which are pretty much black magic in the automotive world.

They're amazing for both track and street use. I cannot believe the comfort level on the street and the track performance in Track mode. With that said, I will most likely replace the stock MRCs when this puppy becomes available (upcoming Z28 1LE Multimatic suspensions) for track focused setup and the clearance advantage so that I can fit some 325s in the rear:

[Lynxis]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

1LE uses magnets which are pretty much black magic in the automotive world.

I was just going to mention this. Magnaride is up there with trick suspension setups and a lot of people seriously underestimate what high end coilovers can do. One guy reported he was stuck at his personal best for months with his KWs until he got custom valved JRZ RS Pro and saw his lap time drop by 3 seconds within a month and he said he still felt that he was getting used to them. With testimonials like that, these setups justify the 6k+ price tag.

That said, this thread is a good warning to avoid modifying yourself into the next performance bracket. At ~45k MSRP, the SS 1LE is a car that outperforms a boosted twin with suspension and rcomps which would put you in the same price bracket for something less reliable and have no warranty support if something goes wrong.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by glamcem

why is it surprising ? In stock form, 1LE can keep up with all the cars that I mentioned above. MT provided all the metrics in figure 8 course and their testings are very scientific.

Mainly because of tires. I'd think NT01's and especially Z214's are at least a step above the Eagle F1 SC3's that come stock on the 1LE. Also partly due to more aggressive alignment and stiffer spring rates you can run on a modified track car (vs a stock production car).

BTW nice driving in the videos. I'm not familiar with ORP but aren't you running CCW in the 1LE and CW in the BRZ? Makes it hard to compare corner speeds in the first two clips.

The next two clips are easier to compare, but your 1LE is already on R-comps at that point so no longer stock. (On a side note - impressive what the 1LE can do on just Trofeo R's.)

Anyway I'm inclined to believe you since you've got direct knowledge of both platforms. I'm just surprised a stock 1LE can outhandle a moderately track-prepped BRZ.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Mainly because of tires. I'd think NT01's and especially Z214's are at least a step above the Eagle F1 SC3's that come stock on the 1LE. Also partly due to more aggressive alignment and stiffer spring rates you can run on a modified track car (vs a stock production car).

BTW nice driving in the videos. I'm not familiar with ORP but aren't you running CCW in the 1LE and CW in the BRZ? Makes it hard to compare corner speeds in the first two clips.

The next two clips are easier to compare, but your 1LE is already on R-comps at that point so no longer stock. (On a side note - impressive what the 1LE can do on just Trofeo R's.)

Anyway I'm inclined to believe you since you've got direct knowledge of both platforms. I'm just surprised a stock 1LE can outhandle a moderately track-prepped BRZ.

The newer hybrid tires (or better way to put it "compromise" tires) have similar peak performances but the grip falls of quickly and they're prone to overheating (good example:RE71Rs) I have to say though I was really impressed with the OEM tires they're as almost as good as the RE71Rs but I didn't get a chance how they will hold up at 90 degrees(another 1LE owner who tracks with RE71Rs had similar results with the OEM tires). I also didn't get a chance to push the car that much. I also got a 2nd set of wheels and tires just to see the difference and analysis purposes ( I like comparing different setups) and splitting the setups will extend the life on the OEM tires a lot not to mention the whopping 8-9 lbs rotational mass savings. I can also shave additional 4 lbs on each corner by going with lighter 2 pc rotors such as RB, Girodiscs or DBAs (vs OEM 2 pc rotors)


Speaking of the suspension setups you are right if it wasn't for the MRC suspension I would agree with you but MRC is a different route they don't use very high spring rates (except the Z06 with Z07 package since it has stickier Cup2 s) but magnetically controlling the dampers to make it firmer. Dampers need to work more. For moderate setup you can always go with DSC controllers (they did mention that the Gen 6 1LE controller and tune is coming up) so that you can use stiffer springs and/or more aggressive compound. I will simply get the DSSVs when they're out.

Thanks for the comments btw. You are right one is CW and the other is CCW so hard to compare corner speeds but the overall lap times are very similar. The point that I was trying to make is, even on the first day and OEM tires and with the traffic the car gave me a lot of confidence. It should only get better with time. I feel like I need more seat time and patience to get used to that V8 power once again as it's been a while since the last time I tracked a V8 car (my old 13 C6 Grandsport)

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by glamcem

The newer hybrid tires (or better way to put it "compromise" tires) have similar peak performances but the grip falls of quickly and they're prone to overheating (good example:RE71Rs) I have to say though I was really impressed with the OEM tires they're as almost as good as the RE71Rs but I didn't get a chance how they will hold up at 90 degrees(another 1LE owner who tracks with RE71Rs had similar results with the OEM tires). I also didn't get a chance to push the car that much. I also got a 2nd set of wheels and tires just to see the difference and analysis purposes ( I like comparing different setups) and splitting the setups will extend the life on the OEM tires a lot not to mention the whopping 8-9 lbs rotational mass savings. I can also shave additional 4 lbs on each corner by going with lighter 2 pc rotors such as RB, Girodiscs or DBAs (vs OEM 2 pc rotors)

Yep seems all the sticky street tires are like that now. Great for autocross (or setting a fast one lap flyer for nurburgring/magazine comparo bragging rights in the case of OEM tires), but not ideal for extended laps.

Originally Posted by glamcem

Speaking of the suspension setups you are right if it wasn't for the MRC suspension I would agree with you but MRC is a different route they don't use very high spring rates (except the Z06 with Z07 package since it has stickier Cup2 s) but magnetically controlling the dampers to make it firmer. Dampers need to work more. For moderate setup you can always go with DSC controllers (they did mention that the Gen 6 1LE controller and tune is coming up) so that you can use stiffer springs and/or more aggressive compound. I will simply get the DSSVs when they're out.

Nice - I've heard DSSV is another step up the chain. I was already impressed with the track characteristics of MRC from a Z51 C7 I rode in, so I can only imagine how much better DSSV will be.

Originally Posted by glamcem

Thanks for the comments btw. You are right one is CW and the other is CCW so hard to compare corner speeds but the overall lap times are very similar. The point that I was trying to make is, even on the first day and OEM tires and with the traffic the car gave me a lot of confidence. It should only get better with time. I feel like I need more seat time and patience to get used to that V8 power once again as it's been a while since the last time I tracked a V8 car (my old 13 C6 Grandsport)

I was actually thinking of picking up a 1LE as a daily and occasional track car (and converting the FR-S to dedicated track car), but your comments are making me rethink whether I would even need to keep the FR-S. Not sure if you have other cars, but how would you feel about using your 1LE as both daily driver and weekend track car? Other than the higher cost of consumables, does the weight bother you on track? Miss the smaller size of your BRZ or s2k?