New BRZ vs Z

[Ernest72]

Originally Posted by FrickingReallySlow

The one thing that will make the Gen2 a CLASSIC would be upgraded CON RODS, maybe pistons. If they came with strong forged internals that can take 600HP of boost without rebuilt short block, these things WILL sell.

Why would they do that for a 228 HP NA car? People have to realize it’s a great platform to build on. But if the costs get too high then you get overlap with other platforms that might be better (eg used caymans). You gotta pay to play. The aftermarket can give you what you want.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by FrickingReallySlow

The one thing that will make the Gen2 a CLASSIC would be upgraded CON RODS, maybe pistons. If they came with strong forged internals that can take 600HP of boost without rebuilt short block, these things WILL sell.

Right, on a platform where less than .5% of owners install FI? Give me a break. 90% of these cars don’t even get modified at all.

[FrickingReallySlow]

Originally Posted by Ernest72

Why would they do that for a 228 HP NA car? People have to realize it’s a great platform to build on. But if the costs get too high then you get overlap with other platforms that might be better (eg used caymans). You gotta pay to play. The aftermarket can give you what you want.

Look at the K24 from the SI or the 2JZ non-turbo both around the same HP yet had huge potential stock and turnkey with bolt-ons that ppl now use for swaps. I mean classic in that a car hits a high floor in depreciation and stays there. If they don't offset the con rods on gen2 for assembly reasons and just keep them straight that'd be start

I wouldn't have gone FI either after hearing all the engines grenading / knocking plus the dark cloud of oil starvation issues from J02. Its a small % of the overall FI vehicles that do this but quite visible online and keeps ppl from going down this route since it needs to be finessed

[shiumai]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

You can buy new Twins/Miata for $30k. Even the 4-cyl Supra is north of $40k.
That puts them in a different class, to me anyway.

I hear ya. Although after everything I put into my BRZ, it was close to $40k (had the Edelbrock SC but took it off for the stupid valve spring recall, and sold it after).

Yup, $10-15k increments do create different 'classes/levels' of affordability for sure.

[timurrrr]

Originally Posted by FrickingReallySlow

If they don't offset the con rods on gen2 for assembly reasons and just keep them straight that'd be start

That's exactly what they did.

Here's a photo my friend sent me from the June 8th 8.6 day in Japan:

[Dzmitry]

Originally Posted by timurrrr

That's exactly what they did.

Here's a photo my friend sent me from the June 8th 8.6 day in Japan:

Nice! They look a little beefier and improved.

[Ernest72]

Originally Posted by FrickingReallySlow

Look at the K24 from the SI or the 2JZ non-turbo both around the same HP yet had huge potential stock and turnkey with bolt-ons that ppl now use for swaps. I mean classic in that a car hits a high floor in depreciation and stays there. If they don't offset the con rods on gen2 for assembly reasons and just keep them straight that'd be start

I wouldn't have gone FI either after hearing all the engines grenading / knocking plus the dark cloud of oil starvation issues from J02. Its a small % of the overall FI vehicles that do this but quite visible online and keeps ppl from going down this route since it needs to be finessed

I get what you are thinking. But Subaru makes no money past the original purchase. They could careless whether people buy a 20 year old subie as a classic and mod it to hell. They care that 90 whatever percent of subarus are still driving on the road for their adverts and you buying a new one. Whether it supports an aftermarket FI is not on the radar. If they beefed up something it was related to warranty not aftermarket. They have the data and see what to tweak. Besides so many abuse the cars anyway so there will always be stories on the forums of motors grenading.

[Lynxis]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

We're moving towards a more sterile, soulless, anodyne future of EVs (regardless of how much sense they may or may not actually make). Yes, the world will hopefully someday be cleaner as a result, but it will also (IMHO) be a lot more boring. We're living in the last days of the shift-for-yourself internal combustion engine sports car. Enjoy them while we can. Once they're gone, they won't be back.

Forget EVs making cars boring, they are developing AI along with EVs that will enable self-driving cars. I strongly suspect that once AI can drive faster and safer than humans can, it will just become illegal for you to drive a car on public roads yourself, especially once we reach the point that the only reason a self-driving vehicle gets into accidents is because of some idiot who still drives their vehicle themselves. At that point, all personal travel will amount to hopping in your vehicle, punching in your destination, and then reading a book or something while you wait for the car to drive you there. Even sadder is that the masses will prefer this state of affairs. At least until your car will refuse to actually drive you where you want to go anyways, but that's a different discussion.

[Ernest72]

Originally Posted by Lynxis

Forget EVs making cars boring, they are developing AI along with EVs that will enable self-driving cars. I strongly suspect that once AI can drive faster and safer than humans can, it will just become illegal for you to drive a car on public roads yourself, especially once we reach the point that the only reason a self-driving vehicle gets into accidents is because of some idiot who still drives their vehicle themselves. At that point, all personal travel will amount to hopping in your vehicle, punching in your destination, and then reading a book or something while you wait for the car to drive you there. Even sadder is that the masses will prefer this state of affairs. At least until your car will refuse to actually drive you where you want to go anyways, but that's a different discussion.

The anarchists will keep this from happening. People hack things just because. Can you imagine the hacking of these automated cars. They have tried it on planes.

[Lelandjt]

Originally Posted by Lynxis

Forget EVs making cars boring, they are developing AI along with EVs that will enable self-driving cars. I strongly suspect that once AI can drive faster and safer than humans can, it will just become illegal for you to drive a car on public roads yourself, especially once we reach the point that the only reason a self-driving vehicle gets into accidents is because of some idiot who still drives their vehicle themselves. At that point, all personal travel will amount to hopping in your vehicle, punching in your destination, and then reading a book or something while you wait for the car to drive you there. Even sadder is that the masses will prefer this state of affairs. At least until your car will refuse to actually drive you where you want to go anyways, but that's a different discussion.

I our lifetimes you won't see human driven cars banned, rather insurance will become so expensive you'll have to be a MAJOR enthusiast to justify driving a car. Other than that you nailed it. Same will go for gas powered engines. Not banned, just expensive to insure and buy fuel.

[Arthur-A]

That extinction of ICEs or that self driving cars bullshit talk is just Overton window crap.

I would be really surprised if that happens in the near future.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by Arthur-A

That extinction of ICEs or that self driving cars bullshit talk is just Overton window crap.

I would be really surprised if that happens in the near future.

It's complete BS. Companies are going to find that the average American can't afford a $40k car.

I live in a cheap state, with an $1100 mortgage. Our gross income is well north of $10k/month............I don't think I would feel comfortable buying a $40k vehicle.

But I guess there is a reason we see 84-96 month car loans now.

[Lynxis]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

It's complete BS. Companies are going to find that the average American can't afford a $40k car.

I live in a cheap state, with an $1100 mortgage. Our gross income is well north of $10k/month............I don't think I would feel comfortable buying a $40k vehicle.

But I guess there is a reason we see 84-96 month car loans now.

EVs are coming down in price, a Mini Hardtop EV is now available for 30k MSRP which puts it right in fighting territory with a new twin. And there are government incentives on EVs in certain places so you might pay even less. I know there is a program to buy a Tesla Model 3 in Canada for 35k right now which is starting to become a compelling proposition for many people. I'd talk about buying an 86 over an EV because I'm confident it would hold it's value better, especially as sought-after ICE cars become harder to find, but I'm concerned that at least where I live, eventually the sale of gasoline will be banned, and then even the sought after ICE cars may lose value if there are enough of them. I'd say if you are at all concerned about having something that will hold value, I'd try to get my hands on something like a Cayman GT4 because even if you can't realistically drive it anymore, a collector will still give some money for it.

[Drakezadrift]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

It’s sad that only Japan is giving us affordable RWD manual options.

Where is the Solstice/Sky? Where is the BMW Z2 that was rumored almost 10 years ago? The cheapest non-Japanese offering is the Cayman at 60K.

There were some interest from a few manufacturers in building a compact, low cost, rear drive cars about a decade ago. Dodge's demon roadster, GM's Code 130R, and Nissan's IDX all come to mind, but the ever increasing mass market shift towards trucks, SUVs, and CUVs and away from smaller passenger cars probably ensured that the U.S. wouldn't see such rear drive compacts, and heck, even some compact FWD performance cars.

At least Honda built the S660 for their home market, but I guess they had no interest in modifying it for the U.S. market.

The sad part about the Skystice twins is that they did not fail due to the lack of sales. They probably would've had a 2nd gen had GM not folded the way that they did during the late 2000's recession. I guess that GM felt that there was no need or desire to revive the cars since the market has shift so much towards larger vehicles by the the time they fully recovered from the bankruptcy.