How is this not an RX8?

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by subatoy

The rotary engine is JUNK for real life use.
-It burns oil like crazy
-It burns gas like crazy (you are lucky if you get 18 MPG hwy)
-the engine blows every 50k miles
-It doesn't start in cold weather
-it has NO torque

Simply put it's the most high maintenance, unreliable and expensive
engine to fix.

I appreciate the innovation but it's junk.

how much torque do you think the frs has? not saying i disagree with everything you are saying but im not sure if the frs even has the same amount of tq as the rx8

[70NYD]

Lol
A rotary working good will burn 1 qt every 1000 miles
If it burns less one of your oil injection lines are clogged and your engine is under lubricated (unless your premixing)
If your burning too much.. Your pump is working too hard lol
Engine doesn't blow every 50k miles, not of looked after properly
It's not cheap to fix but it's not overly expensive.
Apart from that it does spend too much gas but who cares

[serialk11r]

lol@ people saying ITS IN A DIFFERENT CLASS
In my mind the FT is an RX8 that does not burn oil and does not guzzle gas like a V10. Eh clamshell doors, whatever, it's a pretty light car for 4 seater. And the FT will perhaps be a bit slower since the engine is down on power quite a bit. IMO the RX8 has everything else though, good styling (by Mazda standards at least rofl, it looks decent from most angles tbh), good dynamics, similar power/weight. Does 300 pounds and some quasi-rear-doors really put it in a different class, gas guzzling engine aside?

[cassidy0998]

I also felt like this car had a lot in common with the RX-8. And it does. As many stated, the reliability issues and many other complications that came along with the RX-8 kept many away from it. I test drove one, thought it was a fun car. Did some research, and decided to stay AWAY. And I'm very thankful that I did - I was to be using the car for daily driving and reliability was a huge factor, and not to mention the absolutely horrible mpg and lacking power.

The FT86/FR-S/BRZ appears as though that it will fall in between the Miata and the RX-8. It will handle great, feel good etc. It won't be the fastest car in the pack, but maybe it'll be more reliable, be cheaper, and get better mpg than the RX-8.

[70NYD]

If I could be farked I would find one of the threads from about 6months ago where I compared these two cars in a post (I didn't write the thread)
I basically thought same, except power to weight wise, they are close, since it's lighter it will be more nimble (although rx8s suspension is fkn amazing for factory) and it will burn less fuel.
Btw my dd is a rx8, never broken down, never had issues, i maintain it properly
Horrible fuel consumption but meh.
If the ft is just as fun, I will be swapping

[switchlanez]

Rotary: genius in theory, horrible in practice.
Boxer: a good balance of brilliance and practicality.

I hope Mazda or some other company can continue to develop the brilliant Wankel engine with the full focus of making it practical. The amount of effort that has gone into developing piston engines is magnitudes greater than efforts put into developing Wankels. It's just unfair. Rotary can potentially surpass piston if someone can assemble a room full of genius engineers who are bent on making it bulletproof.

[70NYD]

Yeah but piston engines have been around for a long time, and millions of times more research has gone in to them, in to making them better,more reliable, more powerful. And they are used in f1, which means that super critical thinking and development goes in to piston engines all the time
Rotaries, on the other hand, are not as popular in automotive world, and have been developed less. Mazdas next rotary, 16x, will be great if it ever goes in to production. But I you want reliability proof in rotary engines, have a look at what engines are used in some small aircraft, where reliability is the most critical thing

[serialk11r]

Reliable, but high maintanence?
Anyways a lot of months ago I posted about how rotaries can easily be better than piston engines. If they can get ceramic seals and chambers to work, the cooling loss will be decreased tremendously, and we won't need oil introduced into the combustion chamber anymore, making it consume LESS oil than a piston engine. Ceramic seals and chambers have more promise in a rotary because the shape is simpler and there is inherently less vibration and shock that could damage ceramics. Increasing operating temperature of the engine would allow efficiency to pass piston engines. Throttling loss could be addressed by either a small intake stream turbine with bypass or variable geometry intake port. The last problem seems to be compression ratio, I don't know how high it can physically go, but turbo-compounding should take care of that.

With all these things implemented, the rotary will have more specific power, less friction, higher efficiency, more reliability, less emissions, and better part load characteristics than any piston engine possibly could do.

[Gardus@Supersprint]

Serial they have been talking about ceramic wankel engines for what, 30 years now?
I remember hearing about it in the Akira movie, and it was made in 1988.
I think we can file this under "technology that looks pretty on paper but it's not feasible in the real world"

Wankel engines are good for racing vehicles, like karts or racing bikes, where oil consumption and seals reliability are not a factor, but power-to weight ratio and size are.

I always liked the rx-8, both the looks, the layout with the usable rear seats with the clever doors, the big boot, the perfect weight distribution etc but the engine is simply not up to it, any 2.0l piston engine that you often find on the track will leave you behind (Civic Ep3, ITR, Clio RS, S2000...) and it's not so light either.

I think they did the right think to choose the boxer engine, it'll give the car character without compromises in the manitenence and fuel consumption.

[serialk11r]

I'm pretty sure Toyota built a ceramic PISTON engine, although there's no way that could make it to the market. I read some article saying material engineering advances could possibly allow ceramic seals in engines in the near future, although yea that's pretty vague.

In a racing vehicle the engine spends its time at higher speed so the cooling loss is also reduced dramatically. I suspect wankel rotary powered racing cars actually didn't do too bad in the fuel consumption department...such as the 26b, which has extra spark plug and variable geometry intakes.

[Gardus@Supersprint]

Well, it won LeMans afterall!

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Sully

You can get them for much cheaper, and it's a rwd 2+2.

We are talking about new here, and if rwd 2+2 was the only criteria, then most of us would probably already own a genesis or mustang.

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

Amazing how the urban myths have just piled up in here.

From the reading I have done concerning the RX-8 and the Renesis:

A Renesis in good condition(meaning it hasn't already blown it's Apex seals) will burn as much oil as a Piston engine in good condition. Excessive oil consumption means the engine is blown, just like a Piston engine.

They are high maintenance; premium fuel REQUIRED and never let the Oil get too low.

It's a sports car that is fun to drive on the street, plus it's a Mazda. Mazda are not known for their fuel economy compared to similar cars. The 3 gets worse MPG than the Focus and they are very similar.

The Renesis has more torque than most any 2.0L Piston engine and it's geared shorter than the average Honda.

The early Rx-8s did have problems with lack of proper and adequate oiling but 2006+ engines solved this and the 2009+ have the redesigned 6spd. Many people gloss over the fact that the Aisin gearbox used by Mazda were also prone to fail early in their life and had plenty of weak points. The early RX-8s were not a model of reliability to be sure.

Aside:
Myself, I considered buying up an '04 RX-8 knowing that the engine could fail and then swapping the engine/transmission for something else later(warranty or not). It's plenty fast for me and they are more practical than a subcompact coupe. But even 24mpg highway(which is possible) is too thirsty to me. :/ I will probably test drive one and compare to the new Brzo when I go to buy.

@Matador, mid-top range is $30k, the base Sport starts at $26k and weight varies from 2900lbs-3100lbs. The RX-8 is a better comparison than the 370z.

I hear you on all that. Unlike most here I have nothing against rotaries... I actually like them quite a bit. I didn't realize the RX could be had for that cheap, but either way, I consider the RX a Z class car, I couldn't compare the Z to the 86 (till they make a $30k turbo model anyway).

[spin9k]

As far as the similarities – based on my intuition (and owning an RX-8), given the FT-86 specs and expected performance…

1) FT-86 0-62km @ 6-7 sec / high 14 sec 1/4 mile is about the same as the RX-8. Toybaru owners need to get prepared for the "not enough power" criticisms from every other sports car owner on the planet, except the RX-8 and MX-5 crowd lol.

2) FT-86 owners will be defending the "momentum car" label slapped on them, just like RX-8 owners, by offering up the car's alternative virtues at every car forum on the internet.

3. FT-86 owners will be defending the car’s price point (where ever that is, but supposedly $24-28K, sans add-ons) considering an Accord or similar can destroy it at the stoplight, and you can buy an GC for less with gobs more HP (“Isn’t HP everything?”, Joe public will be saying).

3) FT-86 owners will be constantly fending off challenges at every stop light from the Toms, ****s (mostly ****s) and Harrys of the world in their riced up sporty cars, Civics w/fart cans, pickup trucks, etc. (Great so now Some Proper Names are banned on here???!!! LOL)

4) And odds aren't good they will win many of those matches, if they go for them. FT-86 owners will therefore learn the meaning of "slow off the line" and "not a stop light racer”.

5) FT-86 owners will help the economy in their rush to "get just a bit more power' with lots of aftermarket power accessories. Their wallet will be lighter, their car a bit heavier, and hopefully they actually get some more power (different than an RX-8 owner lol).

6) Toybaru owners will quickly learn to be humble and enjoy their ride immensely despite everything they hear/read once the new wears off.

Peace

[Gardus@Supersprint]

The RX8 and the 350z were direct rivals when they were launched, but then the Nissan moved on with the 313 bhp mk2 version which is faster, and the 370Z, which is WAY faster than the Mazda.
We're talking 100+ hp more... and the 370 is also lighter than the 350z, shorter and more agile.

An Rx8 with the same layout but the 2.3 engine of the MPS, that would be interesting.