Takeda exhaust rusting...

[trish07]

Originally Posted by fledonfoot

As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, i went through a warranty claim with them a while ago. It was not fun, and has soured me off them.

My first exhaust had a major fitment issue, where the left tip stuck out past the bumper an inch, and the right side set in about an inch. I'd read several threads about them being a little off center but this was not acceptable.

I took some pictures, and emailed them. I heard nothing back for over a week. I called the place I ordered the parts from and they got me in touch with one of their regional sales reps through their distributor. This guy was great. I was talking to someone in the office on the design team to figure out the problem.

They asked me to reinstall it and try a few things. I went along with it, but nothing changed the fitment. They asked to take some measurements around the hangers, I sent them in and heard nothing back to two weeks.

I got back in touch with their sales manager and flipped out. I had a phone call back from them within an hour. Ultimately, they said it was installation error.

When I told this to the sales manager, I politely explained that I work for a Toyota dealership, and that they're telling me that two Toyota Master level techs can't install an exhaust properly? After a lot of back and forth they agreed to send me a replacement. They said they'd put it on the jig first to make sure it's right.

It showed up a week later. It didn't fit. The left tip is still 1/2" out, but it's nowhere as bad. I've tried it on a friend's car. Doesn't fit that either.

This tells me that they either have a bad design or poor QC. Mostly, i learned they don't care.

Seriously? Mine also didn't fit perfectly!! My left pipe also stuck out of the bumper!!!

[wu_dot_com]

Originally Posted by trish07

Not it is not only surface rust. Parts of it are eated by rust, especially the welds.

that sounds typical for any wield.

the engineering vocab you need to support your clam is
“though 409SSS may have developed a surface oxide layer to protect the corrosion from farther penetrating the sub surface, the wielded area are subject to galvanic corrosion due the wield rod material and the heat effected zone during wielding have alter the materials chemical composition which resist further oxide development. When such material combinations is subject to an high salt environment, detrimental corrosion will occur. This theory can be verified through testing the 409SS wielded coupon material per mil-std-810 salt fog test.”

[trish07]

Originally Posted by wu_dot_com

that sounds typical for any wield.

the engineering vocab you need to support your clam is
“though 409SSS may have developed a surface oxide layer to protect the corrosion from farther penetrating the sub surface, the wielded area are subject to galvanic corrosion due the wield rod material and the heat effected zone during wielding have alter the materials chemical composition which resist further oxide development. When such material combinations is subject to an high salt environment, detrimental corrosion will occur. This theory can be verified through testing the 409SS wielded coupon material per mil-std-810 salt fog test.”

To me, it's still not normal. HKS do not rust. Borla do not rust. Nameless do not rust. I mean, if you design an exhaust, I'm of the opinion you should prevent corrosion. It is logic!

If I buy a home, I expect it not to collapse lol. If I buy a car, I expect it not to brake in 3 months. When Mazda had rust issues with their Mazda3, they had to do something, it was not normal and their customers had not to pay for that. If a company is using cheap material, it is not the consumer's fault. Especially if they sale their products the same price as others that use good material.

I've bought an exhaust in the same price range than others that have no issues, I expect mine to be as good as the others.

Problems can happen, I can understand. But as a good company, you should listen to your customers and find solutions.

[Dimman]

Unfortunately I don't think you will get anywhere with this.

Reading through the description they only identify the tips as 304 stainless, and the main piping as just stainless. This is a legal, but unethical technique for companies that use 4xx stainless in their products. It is common with manufacturers of domestic vehicle systems such as Dynomax, Flowmaster and Magnaflow to use inferior 4xx stainless. But out of these 3 companies, only Flowmaster is up front about using 409 stainless, the rest just use 'stainless steel', banking on the well known reputation of the better 304 stainless to lead customers to assume that is what they use. They don't.

This looks to be the same situation, but adding to the (legal?) deception by naming the tip-only material as 304 to further encourage the customers' assumption. Pricing it on par with true 304 systems reinforces this even more as well as increases profits from using cheaper material.

This is, in my opinion, 100% wrong and no different than outright lying about a product from an ethical point of view.

However, I am not a lawyer and this may actually be 100% legally acceptable. And given how business law seems to be geared towards shafting the consumers, you are probably out the money.

Advertising needs stronger transparency laws.

But in the indefinite meantime consumers need to learn to ask relevant questions about what they are buying.

[FR-S Matt]

Originally Posted by Dimman

This is why people need to educate themselves and investigate the products.

If it rusts, and they make no claim of it being 304 or better (or even full stainless at all) it is a too bad, so sad situation.

This is why I have been a bit of a d!ck to more than a few vendors when it comes to materials, fabrication method and country of origin.

Materials, people have a basic understanding that 304 is the one to have in exhausts. But there is more to it. Country of origin, or better, country of quality assurance plays a role in more than just fitment or welds cracking. The machinery company I work for buy literally tons of steel and aluminum per year (possibly even per month). The planning and purchasing departments are penny pinching misers. On the occasion that they've sourced cheaper material we've always ended up getting burned. Aluminum sold as 6061-T6 that isn't in the T6 condition (useless as it has half its strength), 304L stainless tubing that is out of round with a wall thickness variance of over 25%, 1060 induction-hardened linear shaft that isn't hardened. Each time it is never the whole batch, but from 10% to as much as 25% in the case of the linear shaft. All of it was Chinese-sourced from small Chinese or Canadian distributors. The stuff from US sources, or Chinese production via large corporations like NSK has had practically zero issues.

Any exhaust company that sources in China has a huge risk of quality issues because they don't oversea/own/partner with the factories. The factories run on razor thin margins and one rejected piece can wipe out the profit from a lot of sales. (Yes there will be ranges of factory quality, ranging from ok to terrible. But never good.) So a lot 'slips through' QA. You end up with a few people getting a good fit and durable system, another that needs a hammer for install, and another that fits ok but rusts out in 6 months. All from the same company.

Now as much as people get boners for the Japanese companies, they are not all huge and powerful to the point of being able to maintain suitable quality assurances over the entire supply chain. Not even Ford (transmissions) or Siemens (? German high-speed train) can do this. Add to the fact that two of the biggest Japanese aftermarket companies Trust/Greddy and HKS have been having tough times financially and you have a recipe for cost-cutting problems.

So you either get outsourced production with unverifiable supply chains, or material substitutions. Or both. (One or both of the Greddy/HKS FR-S exhausts in the DSport review use 409 stainless.)

There's more to this, but this is already too long and too ranty...

TLDR:

Nameless and Motiv are beautifully TIG welded, USA-made with USA-sourced 304L. Nameless is also testing the superior titanium-enriched 321 stainless.

JDL is beautifully TIG welded, USA-made, but I haven't confirmed their 304L source but given their standards, I would bet on USA-sourced.

Perrin and Borla are adequately MIG welded, USA-made with unconfirmed source 304.

Buy from these companies.

Couldn't agree more. It's funny not even knowing as much about steel and metals like you and I would have put all of those companies on top as ones I would purchase exhaust products from. I'm pretty positive JDL uses some pretty high quality stuff like Nameless. Maybe they can chime in here.

I'm always promoting Nameless products because they actually do live up to their standards. Just talk with Jason about your build on your car and you'll see why. It instills a lot of confidence in the product you're purchasing and they stand behind what they create. Not to mention they listen to their customers for ideas (i.e. Exhaust Diffuser being made for the Axleback by request) and go through some very interesting details of their builds. JDL did the same with their header and the collector testing they did on it. Two amazing companies.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by FR-S Matt

Couldn't agree more. It's funny not even knowing as much about steel and metals like you and I would have put all of those companies on top as ones I would purchase exhaust products from. I'm pretty positive JDL uses some pretty high quality stuff like Nameless. Maybe they can chime in here.

I'm always promoting Nameless products because they actually do live up to their standards. Just talk with Jason about your build on your car and you'll see why. It instills a lot of confidence in the product you're purchasing and they stand behind what they create. Not to mention they listen to their customers for ideas (i.e. Exhaust Diffuser being made for the Axleback by request) and go through some very interesting details of their builds. JDL did the same with their header and the collector testing they did on it. Two amazing companies.

I did that list off the top of my head. I remembered that both Motiv and Nameless use RathGibson tubing. Just checked JDL's site and their tubing is also American.

In my opinion, these 3 companies are the absolute top tier of fabrication for the FR-S and BRZ.

[trish07]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Unfortunately I don't think you will get anywhere with this.

Reading through the description they only identify the tips as 304 stainless, and the main piping as just stainless. This is a legal, but unethical technique for companies that use 4xx stainless in their products. It is common with manufacturers of domestic vehicle systems such as Dynomax, Flowmaster and Magnaflow to use inferior 4xx stainless. But out of these 3 companies, only Flowmaster is up front about using 409 stainless, the rest just use 'stainless steel', banking on the well known reputation of the better 304 stainless to lead customers to assume that is what they use. They don't.

This looks to be the same situation, but adding to the (legal?) deception by naming the tip-only material as 304 to further encourage the customers' assumption. Pricing it on par with true 304 systems reinforces this even more as well as increases profits from using cheaper material.

This is, in my opinion, 100% wrong and no different than outright lying about a product from an ethical point of view.

However, I am not a lawyer and this may actually be 100% legally acceptable. And given how business law seems to be geared towards shafting the consumers, you are probably out the money.

Advertising needs stronger transparency laws.

But in the indefinite meantime consumers need to learn to ask relevant questions about what they are buying.

I agree with this.

I don't know if I'll get some help from them, but they should think about it. Seriously, I'm quit well known in Quebec for having my lil' Yaris before and now the FR-S. TWM is a great company that put a lot in my car to promote products. I work with a lot of track schools, I work for a well known non-profit organization, I have a LOT of friends in the DMCC (drift championship), I personnaly know, as a good friend, the owner of the DMCC. I'm not bragging about my "connexions", I'm not this type of person, I swear. I never had to do that before. But if I'm not satisfied about something, I will not stay silent.

Takeda should understand that if they want their products to have nice publicity and not being put aside by the FR-S/BRZ owners or any other cars owners, they should work with their customers and help the find solutions about the issues they have with their products.

I want to help Takeda to find a solutions to that. Because obviously, nobody will want to buy their products in countries where there is snow (which means Canada and part of United States) if it rusts that way after 3 months. Who would buy a $800 rusting exhaust when they can have something better, as the Nameless, for $500 or any other brand as Borla or HKS for the same price?

I really like the AFE Intake, this is mainly why I wanted the Takeda exhaust and why my husband thought it should be nice. I really want this be settled......

[xxscaxx]

To add to Dimman's list, my ARK DT-S exhaust is made with T-304/SUS-304 Stainless Steel and TIG Welded. I also paid a pretty penny for it but for good reason lol

[ModBargains.com]

These exhausts were originally made using 409 SS, but now AFE is making these with 304 SS instead as 409 can often accumulate surface rust due to salt/snow and other conditions. You wont see these problems with the new exhausts being shipped out.

[wu_dot_com]

Originally Posted by trish07

To me, it's still not normal. HKS do not rust. Borla do not rust. Nameless do not rust. I mean, if you design an exhaust, I'm of the opinion you should prevent corrosion. It is logic!

If I buy a home, I expect it not to collapse lol. If I buy a car, I expect it not to brake in 3 months. When Mazda had rust issues with their Mazda3, they had to do something, it was not normal and their customers had not to pay for that. If a company is using cheap material, it is not the consumer's fault. Especially if they sale their products the same price as others that use good material.

I've bought an exhaust in the same price range than others that have no issues, I expect mine to be as good as the others.

Problems can happen, I can understand. But as a good company, you should listen to your customers and find solutions.

I can see two sides of this argument.

The biggest question is does this corrosion consider a quality problem?
There question can be answer in two folds.
1. Does the corrosion prohibit the unit from functioning or compromise structural integrity?
2. Is the corrosion superficial, thus even though having rust spots are not aesthetically pleasing, it does have affect the performance of the exhaust in a negative manner?

Iron base metal can developed 2 types of surface oxide. One is the traditional iron oxide or rust as an effect of corrosion; another is passivation which metal oxides are formed as a protective layer.

According to material data, it suggests that 409 will corrode which forms iron oxide, but the iron oxide does not propagate. In this case, unlike traditional iron oxide development, 409SS iron oxide does not grow to significant size where it starts to flake off thus reducing the original material’s mass. This is type of corrosion are called superficial rust which exhibits light discoloring and pitting.

To answer question 1, here is how you can approach the matter.

Though the 409 SS surface rust does not appear to be growing, the rust developed from wield joint area does not follow the same corrosion pattern as iron oxide formulation on plane 409SS. As a result, the long term stability of this rust development in the wielded area is questionable. Further assurance is needed from manufactures to guarantee that there is not a deficiency in the design where corrosion in that area will not penetrate for the life of the unit.

To answer question 2 here is how you can approach the matter.

Though the 409 SS surface rust appears to be superficial, the manufacture has purposely omitted the discloser of this information from the advertising material. While only advertising the usage of 304 SS, the manufacture have mislead the consumer into believing the rest of the exhaust exhibit the same corrosion inhibiting properties as of 304SS. As a result, the manufacture may have violated the FTC regulation of truth in advertising and marketing.

What makes an advertisement deceptive?




According to the FTC's Deception Policy Statement, an ad is deceptive if it contains a statement - or omits information - that:

• Is likely to mislead consumers acting reasonably under the circumstances; and
• Is "material" - that is, important to a consumer's decision to buy or use the product.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bu...small-business

[aFePower]

All, I wanted to just clear a few things up. Trish07, I personally apologize for what you have gone through. I sent you a PM and hope you contact me. The exhaust is 409ss and it will have surface rust only. We did this to keep the exhaust system at a lower price. However, we hear all of you loud and clear. We will release a 304 SS version. We have now made all new exhaust systems in 304 to prevent these issues. We are constantly improving ourselves. We are new to the car exhaust market but do extremely well in the Diesel and Gas exhaust business. Trucks don't require 304 and we understand the car market does. I am thankful we got to hear all of these complaints because it will make us a better company. Trish07, you have every right to be upset and we are sorry you did not have anything less than a great experience. Thank you.

[trish07]

Originally Posted by aFePower

All, I wanted to just clear a few things up. Trish07, I personally apologize for what you have gone through. I sent you a PM and hope you contact me. The exhaust is 409ss and it will have surface rust only. We did this to keep the exhaust system at a lower price. However, we hear all of you loud and clear. We will release a 304 SS version. We have now made all new exhaust systems in 304 to prevent these issues. We are constantly improving ourselves. We are new to the car exhaust market but do extremely well in the Diesel and Gas exhaust business. Trucks don't require 304 and we understand the car market does. I am thankful we got to hear all of these complaints because it will make us a better company. Trish07, you have every right to be upset and we are sorry you did not have anything less than a great experience. Thank you.

Thank you! Yes I emailed you back! Thank for your prompt response, means a lot to me

[Foobar]

Originally Posted by aFePower

All, I wanted to just clear a few things up. Trish07, I personally apologize for what you have gone through. I sent you a PM and hope you contact me. The exhaust is 409ss and it will have surface rust only. We did this to keep the exhaust system at a lower price. However, we hear all of you loud and clear. We will release a 304 SS version. We have now made all new exhaust systems in 304 to prevent these issues. We are constantly improving ourselves. We are new to the car exhaust market but do extremely well in the Diesel and Gas exhaust business. Trucks don't require 304 and we understand the car market does. I am thankful we got to hear all of these complaints because it will make us a better company. Trish07, you have every right to be upset and we are sorry you did not have anything less than a great experience. Thank you.

Thanks for coming on here and providing a response. Welcome to the FT86Club community - hope you guys stick around, as both vendor and customer can benefit from your presence.

[trish07]

Originally Posted by Foobar

Thanks for coming on here and providing a response. Welcome to the FT86Club community - hope you guys stick around, as both vendor and customer can benefit from your presence.

They are doing well so far. I'm impressed!!!