2014 86CUP Challenge to NorCal with NCRC

[ddeflyer]

What event would we be talking about for the 86 only session? I got the impression that the crowd at T-Hill didn't have many people going to Buttonwillow. For me, as much as I want to go to the Buttonwillow event I've already committed to the HOD event at T-Hill that weekend (my dad is going to do his second day on track and I want him to have an instructor in the car all day).

[acx23]

I think the 86 only sessions should be similar to like a Point-By lite, something that NCRC already has. For my own selfish reasons, I don't see any fun running a FRS/BRZ only group - it'll be fun for a couple of sessions - but it'll just turn out to be a Miata run group (taking driving experiences out of the equation).

Maybe I'm a bit more competitive, so I like running with S2000s and GT3s and Vettes. Sure - I'll never be able to catch them... but it's fun trying

But I think @CSG Mike has a good point, some of us more experienced drivers can have ones who are new follow and see how we take our lines. It will be interesting too because cars with different setup will take very slight different lines than ones with no mods. Also how you can adapt your driving/line on the condition of the track.

It's fun for learning (and photo op) and I might sign up for it once or twice a year just to run with the FRS/BRZ group, but running in the general sessions will be my first option.

[acx23]

Man, sorry to hear about the oil temp and how it cramped your day. T Hill is brutal in the summer. That's why I don't do 2-days in the summer anymore - learned that the hard way last year. Besides, I'm not a fan of cyclone anyway so I'm happy with running bypass config. I'm probably going to do t hill at the end of October.

Glad that my advise helped. Tires a really a HUGE HUGE factor and people tend to forget that. Confidence is also a huge factor

I might do one of the days at Laguna Seca in Dec, but I haven't decided yet.

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

I did well. Tom, the NCRC instructor, spent a little bit of time with me and mostly liked what he saw. A few corrections on corners here and there. Mainly I need to work on smoothing out the heel toe. My knees down turn inwards well, so I need to do a weird heel on the brake and toe on the accelerator method. That makes smoothness terribly hard to come by. I still did later braking than pretty much everybody in front of me.

Oil temps went way too high, though, and the computer threw codes all day. In the end, I had to cut the second day short as the car went into limp mode on the track. The PFC and Hawk brake pads stopped me quite well. I think I need less bite on the Hawks in the back. The PFC brakes lost all of 1.5mm in three track days, not counting my dad in driving school and a week of street driving. I didn't measure the Hawks.

I was on Primacy tires, so maybe the limits were low, but like I said, the stability control really did almost nothing. I did notice it, but it was piddly stuff. I could get quite a serious slip angle on turn two without it kicking in. Anything more and I'd be counter steering while scrubbing off speed and running wide. DARIFTA! Then Luc would be grumpy or something. Playing with tire pressure helped a lot with the rear-end grip, which made me faster. With the trunk empty, I had to go down to ~29psi cold in the back and 31 cold in the front before I was using all the tire. Made for a noticeable amount of grip. I should have done it at Laguna Seca like you recommended, but I was getting my confidence back at that point. It was actually like two years since I did a track day.

I truly love the double apex line on turn two. I consistently gained ground with it. Lots of fun.

I think I'll be doing two days in December at Laguna. I enjoyed Thunderhill a lot, but Laguna was more fun for me. And cooler. Goodness.

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

I did well. Tom, the NCRC instructor, spent a little bit of time with me and mostly liked what he saw. A few corrections on corners here and there. Mainly I need to work on smoothing out the heel toe. My knees down turn inwards well, so I need to do a weird heel on the brake and toe on the accelerator method. That makes smoothness terribly hard to come by. I still did later braking than pretty much everybody in front of me.

Oil temps went way too high, though, and the computer threw codes all day. In the end, I had to cut the second day short as the car went into limp mode on the track. The PFC and Hawk brake pads stopped me quite well. I think I need less bite on the Hawks in the back. The PFC brakes lost all of 1.5mm in three track days, not counting my dad in driving school and a week of street driving. I didn't measure the Hawks.

I was on Primacy tires, so maybe the limits were low, but like I said, the stability control really did almost nothing. I did notice it, but it was piddly stuff. I could get quite a serious slip angle on turn two without it kicking in. Anything more and I'd be counter steering while scrubbing off speed and running wide. DARIFTA! Then Luc would be grumpy or something. Playing with tire pressure helped a lot with the rear-end grip, which made me faster. With the trunk empty, I had to go down to ~29psi cold in the back and 31 cold in the front before I was using all the tire. Made for a noticeable amount of grip. I should have done it at Laguna Seca like you recommended, but I was getting my confidence back at that point. It was actually like two years since I did a track day.

I truly love the double apex line on turn two. I consistently gained ground with it. Lots of fun.

I think I'll be doing two days in December at Laguna. I enjoyed Thunderhill a lot, but Laguna was more fun for me. And cooler. Goodness.

Don't underestimate the effect that traction control can have on the car. It will permit substantial sideways'ness if you are in a decently balanced state, but it will not allow you to enter such a state as easily as the car would normally. What I am trying to say is that you need to be careful of slinging the car around too hard with TC on as it might be too much once you turn TC off.

About your tires, how did you figure out when you were using all the tire? I ask because this is frankly a very difficult task and it is strange that you targeted cold temps. Generally you will find that your outside tires (for T-Hill that is the right side) will need less cold pressure than the inside. With the traction control on, having the same cold pressure on both sides will probably end up with the TC making the car twitchy and hard to balance due to overpressure on the outside OR you will be losing grip on the inside tires (due to under-inflation), or worse yet, both. At my current level I've found the best results come from balanced hot pressure as that keeps the tires the same shape on both sides.

[orthojoe]

Originally Posted by mkivsoopra

Hmm.. how about this set of files? It's pretty much everything related to that download. Previously, I attached the output of the "Export Test Run" option. Thanks!

Too big to attach, so I've put it here: http://www.mkivsoopra.com/BRZ/GarlandBRZ03082014.zip

I took a look at your data and did some quick overlays.

1st row is speed
2nd row is throttle position
3rd row is brake pressure
4th row is time lost/gain between 2 cars

I am red (stock brz with oem size mpss replacement tires)
You are blue (turbo, tires?, ??).



You need to work on turn 9 and 10. Those corners are much faster than you think.

The most striking thing I see is that you are only using 1/2 of the power available in your car since you are only partial throttle the almost the entire time. The only time you are full throttle is down the main straight. Nowhere else. If you look at the time differential between my lap and yours, you gain over 2 seconds on me just based purely on the the power you have down the back and main straight. Use that power. Compare your throttle application to mine. If you're thinking it's because you can't put down that amount of power, look at this graph below which compares your lap (blue) against my 320hp boxster (red). I'm making more power and I'm on the throttle more.



You have the power, might as well use it. Learn to keep on feeding the throttle as soon as you can and don't let up. I'd be curious to see how the engine and oil temps hold up once you really stay on the power.

[EAGLE5]

I looked at shoe polish and tire wear. When I was using all of the tire, I figured I was doing well. When grip went up and balance improved, I knew I was doing well. I talked about cold temps because that was what they ended up at cold. I wasn't targeting any psi, just adjusting until the tires were getting used. This resulted in better grip. I got the fronts right pretty quickly, but I had the back too high for a long while. The extra last two psi drop made a huge difference. I also had some help from Andrew, the instructor who drives a Z06 and was called a tire pressure guru.

I was pretty smooth on steering (not downshifting!!!), so stability really wasn't a problem for me. I do very few steering corrections. I'm not arguing that TC is great or that I will use it forever. I'm just saying that on such a hot day, with such slippery tires, with the way I was driving, the stability did very little. The one time I went off a little, outside turn 15, it was on and of no help. I don't think it even kicked in. I just knew I wasn't going to make it so I went off-roading for a sec. Didn't even make the track dirty.

I drove a much more powerful car, a 550i, at TH before. It's computers were very, very intrusive, even in sport mode, so I always turned them off completely. As it was with the FRS, the tires were howling and the computers were doing nothing. Shrug. Anywhere they would kick in was a place I should not have placed the car, like on the dip just after the bypass that totally upsets the car.

Now if I had suspension mods, stickier tires, or something else going on, it might have been a different story. The car was NOT twitchy at all. It was a fucking dream. So fun.

Originally Posted by ddeflyer

Don't underestimate the effect that traction control can have on the car. It will permit substantial sideways'ness if you are in a decently balanced state, but it will not allow you to enter such a state as easily as the car would normally. What I am trying to say is that you need to be careful of slinging the car around too hard with TC on as it might be too much once you turn TC off.

About your tires, how did you figure out when you were using all the tire? I ask because this is frankly a very difficult task and it is strange that you targeted cold temps. Generally you will find that your outside tires (for T-Hill that is the right side) will need less cold pressure than the inside. With the traction control on, having the same cold pressure on both sides will probably end up with the TC making the car twitchy and hard to balance due to overpressure on the outside OR you will be losing grip on the inside tires (due to under-inflation), or worse yet, both. At my current level I've found the best results come from balanced hot pressure as that keeps the tires the same shape on both sides.

[Xerious]

Originally Posted by acx23

Oh man... I guess I'm not going fast enough then

Were you guys at Laguna Seca a couple Fridays ago?

I found this link from another thread
http://www.autofactory.jp/product/to...&cate=4&seq=11

Good thing I'll be in Japan next month. Field trip to Shizuoka

I go to Japan a few times a year and tried to find parts for our car and couldn't find anything that didn't require me to order it first. Where is this place you mentioned? I'd this near Tokyo?

[ddeflyer]

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

I looked at shoe polish and tire wear. When I was using all of the tire, I figured I was doing well. When grip went up and balance improved, I knew I was doing well. I talked about cold temps because that was what they ended up at cold. I wasn't targeting any psi, just adjusting until the tires were getting used. This resulted in better grip. I got the fronts right pretty quickly, but I had the back too high for a long while. The extra last two psi drop made a huge difference. I also had some help from Andrew, the instructor who drives a Z06 and was called a tire pressure guru.

I was pretty smooth on steering (not downshifting!!!), so stability really wasn't a problem for me. I do very few steering corrections. I'm not arguing that TC is great or that I will use it forever. I'm just saying that on such a hot day, with such slippery tires, with the way I was driving, the stability did very little. The one time I went off a little, outside turn 15, it was on and of no help. I don't think it even kicked in. I just knew I wasn't going to make it so I went off-roading for a sec. Didn't even make the track dirty.

I drove a much more powerful car, a 550i, at TH before. It's computers were very, very intrusive, even in sport mode, so I always turned them off completely. As it was with the FRS, the tires were howling and the computers were doing nothing. Shrug. Anywhere they would kick in was a place I should not have placed the car, like on the dip just after the bypass that totally upsets the car.

Now if I had suspension mods, stickier tires, or something else going on, it might have been a different story. The car was NOT twitchy at all. It was a fucking dream. So fun.

Using shoe polish as your guide, I would expect that you aren't using the center of your tire as well as you could. Next time you are at the track ask around and see if you can borrow a pyrometer; I had one and could have helped you out. If nothing else it can be an added data point to help you understand what you are doing.

From my experience, greasy tires and such tend to make the traction control come on more (even when there is no reason for it to come on). You can be perfectly smooth, but if you are near the edge of the friction circle then the imperfections in the track's surface should be tickling the TC based on tire slip on the track's cracks. If it isn't coming on then you are probably leaving substantial grip unused. On the other hand, if it is coming on and you don't realize it then you might not be fully aware of the car's motions. In either event you might want to put a camera in your car with a view of the outside and of the TC light.

[acx23]

Auto Factory is in Shizuoka. I remmeber there's Autobacs in Yokohama because my buddy with a S2000 was in Tokyo and he wanted to checkout the AEM showcase. I've been to a couple of Upgarage stores about 7 years ago. Finding parts aren't easy there.

Originally Posted by Xerious

I go to Japan a few times a year and tried to find parts for our car and couldn't find anything that didn't require me to order it first. Where is this place you mentioned? I'd this near Tokyo?

[EAGLE5]

Yah, I'm not aiming for the razor's edge of grip, especially not on turn 8. That one freaks me out. I just aim for where I can throttle steer and the tires are slipping. Once that's happening on a corner, I'm happy as a clam. I really enjoyed the weight transfer front to rear, seeing how sometimes the tires hooked up and sometimes they just slid with more throttle. With everything out of the back of the car, I can see why somebody might like a mid-engined car. I didn't know you had a pyrometer, but I'll definitely take you up on the offer. I accidentally left my camera at home. At least it's fully charged.

Hard to say how much grip I'm leaving unused. More throttle in turns 2, 3, and 5a just made me go wider than the line I wanted.

Originally Posted by ddeflyer

Using shoe polish as your guide, I would expect that you aren't using the center of your tire as well as you could. Next time you are at the track ask around and see if you can borrow a pyrometer; I had one and could have helped you out. If nothing else it can be an added data point to help you understand what you are doing.

From my experience, greasy tires and such tend to make the traction control come on more (even when there is no reason for it to come on). You can be perfectly smooth, but if you are near the edge of the friction circle then the imperfections in the track's surface should be tickling the TC based on tire slip on the track's cracks. If it isn't coming on then you are probably leaving substantial grip unused. On the other hand, if it is coming on and you don't realize it then you might not be fully aware of the car's motions. In either event you might want to put a camera in your car with a view of the outside and of the TC light.

[RehabJeff86]

Originally Posted by acx23

Auto Factory is in Shizuoka. I remmeber there's Autobacs in Yokohama because my buddy with a S2000 was in Tokyo and he wanted to checkout the AEM showcase. I've been to a couple of Upgarage stores about 7 years ago. Finding parts aren't easy there.

Ya the biggest Super AutoBacs is near Yokohama in Hinonome, they have a dedicated GT86/BRZ sections for all parts - visited in Feb this year.

[mkivsoopra]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

I took a look at your data and did some quick overlays.
...

Thanks for the analysis! The car is turbo (GT3076) with 245/35-18 MPSS all around and Racecomp Tarmac 0 suspension. I do realize that I'm using mostly part throttle, but the overlay really puts it into perspective. It's also very good to see how much more speed can be picked up in 9 and 10.

The main thing holding me back is indeed the question of whether the car can put the power down or not. I guess I'll have to slowly work my way up. Also working on beefing up the cooling for both oil and water, so I hope it holds up.

[BRZChix]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

Hell yeah to 86 session

+ 1

[CSG Mike]

I'm down to come up to norcal if there's enough interest.