Vacci-Nation [CLOSED DUE TO DISRESPECTFUL, INSULTING, POLITICAL POSTS

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by weederr33

Jesus that's a horrible reaction! I've never had anything like that. Then again, I don't get the flu shot very often unless it's going to be a tough season. Though that does sound similar to when I did get the actual flu in college and was bed ridden for a week.

But ..... but ....... how do you know?

After you had the REAL flu once, I thought you would be first in line, with your sleeve rolled up, when the pharmacy opened, to get a flue shot -

[Lantanafrs2]

So some of us are just getting fully immunized yet have been touting the shot for months and admonishing so called anti vaxxers? Hypocrisy

[wbradley]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

So some of us are just getting fully immunized yet have been touting the shot for months and admonishing so called anti vaxxers? Hypocrisy

Huh? In my case I received my shots as soon as I could get them here, April 25 and late June. Most people that encourage other to become vaccinated would have relied on local availability and/or if they decided to get vaccinated late in the game what's wrong with that? Better than not at all isn't it? Do they not also have the right to encourage others to do the same?

Why are you so negative about this stuff anyway?

[weederr33]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

So some of us are just getting fully immunized yet have been touting the shot for months and admonishing so called anti vaxxers? Hypocrisy

Lol you really don't think do you? It comes down to availability, geography, and politics.

[AnalogMan]

By now most people have seen the news of the completely expected and predictable correlation between vaccination rates and COVID infections - areas with high vaccination rates have lower infection rates, and vice versa, places with low vaccination rates are experiencing surges and higher infection rates. Lots of data and stories on this topic -

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...946v1.full.pdf

https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...ination-rates/

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu

The net result is that 93% of COVID-19 cases in recent days have occurred in counties with vaccination rates of less than 40%, and 99.5% of COVID-19 deaths have occurred in unvaccinated people -

https://www.c-span.org/video/?513253...-team-briefing

It's clear another surge is underway, focused on states and areas with low vaccination rates though resulting in increasing numbers for the country as a whole -

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...iew/index.html

It's also clear from a number of recent studies that the Delta variant is more transmissible and causes more severe illness than either the original strain, or earlier variants such as Alpha -

https://virological.org/t/viral-infe...-2-variant/724

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...358-1/fulltext

As a result, we will soon once again be faced with the dilemma of insufficient healthcare resources (doctors, nurses, hospital beds, medications, ventilators, etc.) to meet increasing demand, and once again having to figure out what to do about it.

I have a rather radical(?) idea: deny healthcare insurance coverage for those who have refused to get vaccinated.

By now almost everyone who has wanted to get vaccinated in the U.S. has done so (this doesn't apply in many other countries). Most of those who are not yet vaccinated in the U.S. are doing so by their own choice.

I say, fine. No one is going to strap anyone down and force a needle into their arm (though a good case could me made for it). But since healthcare resources are precious and limited, I suggest, deny insurance coverage for anyone voluntarily unvaccinated in the U.S. at this point. They are free to go without vaccination, but if they get infected, they should also be responsible for paying for their own treatment. If they cannot afford to pay, they're on their own.

Those who are unvaccinated are putting the rest of us in moral danger by putting us at risk of getting infected by them. Not only that, but by getting infected, the are turning their bodies into mutation factories.

All viruses mutate. This is the fundamental evolutionary process of nature. Life evolves in ways to promote its own survival. In the case of the coronavirus, this means evolving in ways to become more contagious, cause more serious illness (and thus create more virions), or become resistant to vaccines.

The more people who are infected, the more variants that will be created, and the greater the risk that the virus will continue to evolve in ways that may be increasingly resistant to vaccines.

Each person who chooses to go unvaccinated not only endangers their own health and life and is a risk to others, but is also essentially a mutation factory. An infected person will have between 1 and 100 billion virions in their body -

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/25/e2024815118

Based on how quickly the coronavirus mutates -

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7224694/

this means each infected person could potentially generate (very roughly) 1,000 to 100,000 new mutations. While most mutations are inconsequential or even deleterious to the virus, how many of those might result in a new variant with increased transmissibility, severity of illness, or resistance to vaccines?

Unrestrained by masking or social distancing, one infected person could cause 1,000 infections in one month, and one million infections in two months

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7224694/

“My body my choice” doesn’t apply when a person’s actions can cause harm to or the deaths of many other people. We don't have a 'my car my choice' rule that allows people to drive their cars in the oncoming lane the wrong way on the highway, because that would endanger other people. The same should apply to the pandemic and vaccination.

It seems to me that logic, data, facts, science, and reason will not convince any remaining vaccination holdouts in the U.S. to get vaccinated at this point. So, my suggestion (which of course will never happen) is to deny them payment for COVID healthcare services, as well as prohibit travel on public transportation or entry into public buildings or indoor spaces. The limited healthcare resources should be reserved for those who are not willfully and intentionally putting the rest of society in moral danger by their actions.

Let the outrage, flame wars, and indignation begin (but this outrageous idea might spark some spirited discussion).

[weederr33]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

By now most people have seen the news of the completely expected and predictable correlation between vaccination rates and COVID infections - areas with high vaccination rates have lower infection rates, and vice versa, places with low vaccination rates are experiencing surges and higher infection rates. Lots of data and stories on this topic -

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...946v1.full.pdf

https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...ination-rates/

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu

The net result is that 93% of COVID-19 cases in recent days have occurred in counties with vaccination rates of less than 40%, and 99.5% of COVID-19 deaths have occurred in unvaccinated people -

https://www.c-span.org/video/?513253...-team-briefing

It's clear another surge is underway, focused on states and areas with low vaccination rates though resulting in increasing numbers for the country as a whole -

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...iew/index.html

It's also clear from a number of recent studies that the Delta variant is more transmissible and causes more severe illness than either the original strain, or earlier variants such as Alpha -

https://virological.org/t/viral-infe...-2-variant/724

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...358-1/fulltext

As a result, we will soon once again be faced with the dilemma of insufficient healthcare resources (doctors, nurses, hospital beds, medications, ventilators, etc.) to meet increasing demand, and once again having to figure out what to do about it.

I have a rather radical(?) idea: deny healthcare insurance coverage for those who have refused to get vaccinated.

By now almost everyone who has wanted to get vaccinated in the U.S. has done so (this doesn't apply in many other countries). Most of those who are not yet vaccinated in the U.S. are doing so by their own choice.

I say, fine. No one is going to strap anyone down and force a needle into their arm (though a good case could me made for it). But since healthcare resources are precious and limited, I suggest, deny insurance coverage for anyone voluntarily unvaccinated in the U.S. at this point. They are free to go without vaccination, but if they get infected, they should also be responsible for paying for their own treatment. If they cannot afford to pay, they're on their own.

Those who are unvaccinated are putting the rest of us in moral danger by putting us at risk of getting infected by them. Not only that, but by getting infected, the are turning their bodies into mutation factories.

All viruses mutate. This is the fundamental evolutionary process of nature. Life evolves in ways to promote its own survival. In the case of the coronavirus, this means evolving in ways to become more contagious, cause more serious illness (and thus create more virions), or become resistant to vaccines.

The more people who are infected, the more variants that will be created, and the greater the risk that the virus will continue to evolve in ways that may be increasingly resistant to vaccines.

Each person who chooses to go unvaccinated not only endangers their own health and life and is a risk to others, but is also essentially a mutation factory. An infected person will have between 1 and 100 billion virions in their body -

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/25/e2024815118

Based on how quickly the coronavirus mutates -

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7224694/

this means each infected person could potentially generate (very roughly) 1,000 to 100,000 new mutations. While most mutations are inconsequential or even deleterious to the virus, how many of those might result in a new variant with increased transmissibility, severity of illness, or resistance to vaccines?

Unrestrained by masking or social distancing, one infected person could cause 1,000 infections in one month, and one million infections in two months

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7224694/

“My body my choice” doesn’t apply when a person’s actions can cause harm to or the deaths of many other people. We don't have a 'my car my choice' rule that allows people to drive their cars in the oncoming lane the wrong way on the highway, because that would endanger other people. The same should apply to the pandemic and vaccination.

It seems to me that logic, data, facts, science, and reason will not convince any remaining vaccination holdouts in the U.S. to get vaccinated at this point. So, my suggestion (which of course will never happen) is to deny them payment for COVID healthcare services, as well as prohibit travel on public transportation or entry into public buildings or indoor spaces. The limited healthcare resources should be reserved for those who are not willfully and intentionally putting the rest of society in moral danger by their actions.

Let the outrage, flame wars, and indignation begin (but this outrageous idea might spark some spirited discussion).

I get what you're saying and mostly agree, but the truth of the matter is, those who don't want to get the vaccine never will. No amount of science or date will sway them. Usually it takes some sort of direct impact to affect them; i.e. they get a very bad case of it or a family member of theirs dies. Those that are on the fence, either due to caution or ignorance, typically do not look at the legitimate sources. If they did, they would have chosen by now or at least done enough research to determine if the pros out weigh the cons.
Unfortunately we live in a digital world where many people look to social media to determine their choice. And social media is where a lot of nonsensical information is spread; namely Facebook. You don't have to outsmart an ignorant person, you just have to present things that sound pleasant or appealing to them. And sadly, the anti-vax community is really good at using fear, pseudoscience, or other methods to spin the vaccine. I mean, shit, look at the shear number of conspiracies that have spawned from this whole situation! (my new favorite is the microchips)

[AnalogMan]

Originally Posted by weederr33

I get what you're saying and mostly agree, but the truth of the matter is, those who don't want to get the vaccine never will. No amount of science or date will sway them.

I think you're absolutely right, and agree with you. I'm not suggesting denying health insurance coverage for the willfully unvaccinated because I think it might incentivize them to get vaccinated. It won't. I suggest it because I've given up on anything ever convincing them.

I think we should deny health insurance coverage and payment for COVID care to the voluntarily unvaccinated because those limited resources should be reserved for those who have not intentionally put others in moral danger of their lives.

Likewise, I think the willfully unvaccinated should not be allowed to travel on planes, trains, buses, or to enter stores, restaurants, bars, buildings, etc. again not to make things unpleasant for them to encourage them to get vaccinated, but to minimize how many people they will infect.

It's become apparent that there is literally nothing that will get most of the unvaccinated to get vaccinated. It's emotional, and pointless to try to come up with new approaches to try and make it happen. Even piles of bodies will be rationalized by them as 'they died of something else' and 'hospitals just call it COVID because they get more money that way'. I'm accepting the reality that these people will simply never get vaccinated. In light of that, doctors, nurses, hospital beds, ventilators, etc. shouldn't be wasted on them.

The virus doesn't care about a person's beliefs. Particularly given the hyper-transmissibility of Delta and other variants such as Lambda and Gamma, it will ultimately infect almost anyone who is unvaccinated. Choosing to not get vaccinated is choosing to become extinct. They can do that, but the rest of us shouldn't sacrifice limited medical care resources, or pay for their decisions through higher insurance rates and taxes.

What I'm hearing from the epidemiologists I regularly talk with is that it will probably take something in the range of 80%-85% (if not higher) vaccination to break the cycle of contagion (the proverbial 'herd immunity', even though that's a terrible name for it). We're just not going to get there by trying to convince the recalcitrant to get vaccinated. They're just not going to do it, and this country is unlikely to get much beyond 70% vaccination. That's not enough, and the virus will continue to spread, propagate, and most dangerously, mutate and generate variants. Evolution dictates that variants will likely continue to develop increasing resistance to vaccines, meaning we will never be 'done' with the pandemic.

Because vaccines aren't perfect, and because vaccine resistance will likely continue to evolve in new variants, some of the rest of us will be taken as well. It's tragic collateral damage, but unfortunately unavoidable given the situation.

At some point in the not too distant future, the only survivors will be those who are vaccinated. The willfully unvaccinated will contribute to making that happen by choosing to die off and making themselves extinct. We'll eventually get to 85% vaccination rates not because they will finally choose to be vaccinated, but because they will no longer be here (and the vaccinated will be a proportionately higher number relative to a smaller denominator in the equation).

It's a harsh reality, but reality nonetheless. The sooner we accept it, the sooner we can truly begin the process of moving on. Otherwise, we'll be stuck in this quagmire forever.

[weederr33]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

At some point in the not too distant future, the only survivors will be those who are vaccinated.

You've gotta give the human body more credit. Although this is a wishful and emotional desire, it will not happen that way. "Life, uh, finds a way." is the thing I think. At this point, I've stopped caring for the most part as I've played my part. My concern is now economical. I'm a bit tired of things being out of stock, or productions being slow, or prices rising because they keep quoting COVID.

[Lantanafrs2]

So this is an extinction event? Get your meds adjusted.

[Capt Spaulding]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

I think you're absolutely right, and agree with you. I'm not suggesting denying health insurance coverage for the willfully unvaccinated because I think it might incentivize them to get vaccinated. It won't. I suggest it because I've given up on anything ever convincing them.

I think we should deny health insurance coverage and payment for COVID care to the voluntarily unvaccinated because those limited resources should be reserved for those who have not intentionally put others in moral danger of their lives.

Likewise, I think the willfully unvaccinated should not be allowed to travel on planes, trains, buses, or to enter stores, restaurants, bars, buildings, etc. again not to make things unpleasant for them to encourage them to get vaccinated, but to minimize how many people they will infect.

It's become apparent that there is literally nothing that will get most of the unvaccinated to get vaccinated. It's emotional, and pointless to try to come up with new approaches to try and make it happen. Even piles of bodies will be rationalized by them as 'they died of something else' and 'hospitals just call it COVID because they get more money that way'. I'm accepting the reality that these people will simply never get vaccinated. In light of that, doctors, nurses, hospital beds, ventilators, etc. shouldn't be wasted on them.

The virus doesn't care about a person's beliefs. Particularly given the hyper-transmissibility of Delta and other variants such as Lambda and Gamma, it will ultimately infect almost anyone who is unvaccinated. Choosing to not get vaccinated is choosing to become extinct. They can do that, but the rest of us shouldn't sacrifice limited medical care resources, or pay for their decisions through higher insurance rates and taxes.

What I'm hearing from the epidemiologists I regularly talk with is that it will probably take something in the range of 80%-85% (if not higher) vaccination to break the cycle of contagion (the proverbial 'herd immunity', even though that's a terrible name for it). We're just not going to get there by trying to convince the recalcitrant to get vaccinated. They're just not going to do it, and this country is unlikely to get much beyond 70% vaccination. That's not enough, and the virus will continue to spread, propagate, and most dangerously, mutate and generate variants. Evolution dictates that variants will likely continue to develop increasing resistance to vaccines, meaning we will never be 'done' with the pandemic.

Because vaccines aren't perfect, and because vaccine resistance will likely continue to evolve in new variants, some of the rest of us will be taken as well. It's tragic collateral damage, but unfortunately unavoidable given the situation.

At some point in the not too distant future, the only survivors will be those who are vaccinated. The willfully unvaccinated will contribute to making that happen by choosing to die off and making themselves extinct. We'll eventually get to 85% vaccination rates not because they will finally choose to be vaccinated, but because they will no longer be here (and the vaccinated will be a proportionately higher number relative to a smaller denominator in the equation).

It's a harsh reality, but reality nonetheless. The sooner we accept it, the sooner we can truly begin the process of moving on. Otherwise, we'll be stuck in this quagmire forever.

I noted sometime back that one of the problems with putting together public health response to SARS-Cov 2 is that, so far, it is not deadly enough to scare the anti-vaxers into getting the shot. In a way, it's ideal from the virus's perspective. If it were scarier many more people would get vaccinated and the virus would die out. So, it seems that Cov-2 is doing exactly what it needs to to be with us for a long time.

I am tired of trying to persuade or shame Americans into getting vaccinated. My current thinking is we as a nation should very shortly abandon the effort to persuade our fellow citizens to get vaccinated, withdraw most of the vax supply and ship it to the developing world (and Canada - lol) - places that want it. Rather than offering free beer or movie tickets or what-the-fuck-ever as inducements, vaccinate people who are desperate to get the shots. At the same time, as you suggested, require that willfully unvaccinated Americans pay out of pocket for their care should they contract the virus.

I don't subscribe to the notion that this is an extinction or even a decimation level pathogen. However. the laws of probability suggest that sooner or later mutations will emerge that 1) can circumvent the immunity offered by current vaccines, or 2) are substantially more virulent, or 3) both of the above. Thus, we must closely monitor variants as they emerge and tweak the vaccines in response to those mutations. If or when probability bites us in the ass we must be better prepared. When that happens, the vaccines for the emergent strains should be reserved, first, for those who were vaccinated in the first round.

[AnalogMan]

Originally Posted by weederr33

"Life, uh, finds a way."

'Life' did find a way.

It developed vaccines.

[Spuds]

Remember that unvaccinated coworker I mentioned a few weeks ago who became infected with covid-19? Yeah he's still sick.

[AnalogMan]

Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2

So this is an extinction event? Get your meds adjusted.

Everything works until it doesn't.

[weederr33]

Originally Posted by Spuds

Remember that unvaccinated coworker I mentioned a few weeks ago? Yeah he's still sick.

Good.