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Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain.


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Old 06-30-2020, 05:59 AM   #15
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holy fk your a god dude, i just googled/youtubed it and that does describe the symptoms quite nicely. i'll spend the 5 minutes on the weekend and knock that spring outta there to test with for a week. if i end up not liking it, i'll order a weaker spring. it also looks like a common sized spring, might look in my hobby drawer to see if there's anything with the correct diameter that i can cut down. lol i've daily driven twin discs, unsprung pucked and custom high tq clutches and it was boggling my mind why i couldn't control the FRS the same way.
Hah, glad I could help. People say that removing it leads to wear on the throw out bearing/clutch because the pedal no longer locks all the way up. I don't know how true that is but I have had mine out of there for like 40k miles.
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Old 06-30-2020, 07:24 AM   #16
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This problem was solved a little while back by Ultramaroon. A lot of people have reported really good results from swapping the clutch slave cylinder for a narrower bore.

Check out his guide here
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77390

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Old 06-30-2020, 09:12 AM   #17
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They allow MT's in SF?
There's not too many places I would prefer an AT, but SF is one of them.
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Old 06-30-2020, 10:27 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by dagle View Post
if you ever have a chance to drive sporty cars from the early 2000's, it'll fill you in on what you might be missing out on

the slave cylinder design from the 90s and 00's were different that allowed for clutch modulation to be almost 1:1 analogously regardless of how hard you stomp on or release the clutch. I don't think the FRS/BRZ have the same system components, there seems to be a mechanical or hydraulic delay (unless if my master cylinder's brake fluid is mushier than it should be) when releasing the clutch particularly if I clutch dump at high RPMs. The net effect is that I shift in my s2000 significantly faster than in my FRS and both cars have fairly mild clutches (both sprung, full non-pucked discs). The other time it's noticeable is when I am in San Francisco on a hill riding my clutch (zero throttle, sitting on the clutch engaged to hold me at 0mph and not rolling). I can do this effortlessly on my S2000 and I cannot seem to get it to work in my FRS, though I will admit that I have had more than a decade of practice in the former car.

as far as the throttle body DBW system, we can agree to disagree lol i've driven a handful of DBW cars that were very good but that's probably biased by how much horsepower they have and thus how much feedback the driver is immersed with. I much prefer the later 08-09 s2000's DBW system and even the newer teslas, but again those are different monsters. The FRS in sport mode seems to be closer to those 2, but in normal mode it is not great in my opinion.
I'm not missing out on anything or need to be filled in on anything, you have no idea what I've driven.

As far as BRZ and FRS having the same clutch system components... they do.

Riding your clutch on hills is rookie driving. That explains a lot when you talk about not being able to figure out the driving on hills / curbing your wheels.

The DBW system in this car is the closest thing to a cable throttle body I've encountered in DBW systems.
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Old 06-30-2020, 10:50 AM   #19
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I switched back to stock tune and the throttle response felt really slow. On the e85 OFT tune, it's much better.
I've noticed that the throttle response is better when I switch from 91 octane to 93+ (FYI I always use non-oxygenated fuels). In particular, when downshifting and rev matching the throttle is just "right there" with higher octane fuels.
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Old 06-30-2020, 12:16 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dagle View Post
I'm coming from a mechanical cable system (s2000) and the FRS' throttle response in non-sport mode is painfully bad.
Hey dagle! Glad you found the place. PW is Random Thoughts over here.

I've had to drive my sister up Spring street from the waterfront to the top of Capitol Hill for the last few months.
Giant hill and always get stuck at lights along the way. It's a matter of getting used to the car more than anything else.

I usually don't mess with the modes, as I like the fuel mileage and have not gone down the mod rabbit hole.
The 2K has lots of torque, but it's all up at the top of the rev range.
If you compare, note that the 86 has a huge torque bump down low that you can take advantage of on city hills.

I've been more than happy with mine, but I don't swap out vehicles often.

Definitely check out the DIY. Lots of stuff has been accumulated.
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Old 06-30-2020, 01:05 PM   #21
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I'm not missing out on anything or need to be filled in on anything, you have no idea what I've driven.

As far as BRZ and FRS having the same clutch system components... they do.

Riding your clutch on hills is rookie driving. That explains a lot when you talk about not being able to figure out the driving on hills / curbing your wheels.

The DBW system in this car is the closest thing to a cable throttle body I've encountered in DBW systems.
you seem to be mad about something or have a point to prove, are you ok man? no need to get defensive if you haven't driven purpose-built cars with better DBW systems lol. if you have and still think the FRS/BRZ system is the bee's knees that's OK i guess.

the comparison of FRS/BRZ was to the simpler slave designs from the cars of the 90's and 00's not to each other. some very fast SF-based drivers ride their clutch because it's the most convenient way to drive in the city, most of us would just spend the couple hours replacing the clutch when the time comes because riding the clutch saves us the occasional embarassment of slipping the clutch and missing (sometimes i'll be driving a lady around and i want to pretend like i know what i'm doing).

lastly, no knock on you or the cars you've driven but how could you think the FRS/BRZ's DBW system is the closest thing to cable while claiming (or at least alluding to) that you've driven much better machines? Anything AEM infinity, Motec, Haltech is better by a mile is it not?
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Old 06-30-2020, 01:15 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by LimitedSlip View Post
I've noticed that the throttle response is better when I switch from 91 octane to 93+ (FYI I always use non-oxygenated fuels). In particular, when downshifting and rev matching the throttle is just "right there" with higher octane fuels.
hmm ill try that, i think my shop has a few cans of 120+ octane VP stuff laying around from a recent track day.

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Hey dagle! Glad you found the place. PW is Random Thoughts over here.

I've had to drive my sister up Spring street from the waterfront to the top of Capitol Hill for the last few months.
Giant hill and always get stuck at lights along the way. It's a matter of getting used to the car more than anything else.

I usually don't mess with the modes, as I like the fuel mileage and have not gone down the mod rabbit hole.
The 2K has lots of torque, but it's all up at the top of the rev range.
If you compare, note that the 86 has a huge torque bump down low that you can take advantage of on city hills.

I've been more than happy with mine, but I don't swap out vehicles often.

Definitely check out the DIY. Lots of stuff has been accumulated.
will do! i think from this thread i'll end up knocking that clutch assist spring off and seeing what options are available with reflashing for throttle response. I may simply end up with rigging up sport mode on engine start (with a delay as mentioned) and manage my MPGs with RPMs for now. For the amount of driving I do, fuel mileage is not the biggest deal. My other car gets about 15MPG at best on the freeway and probably right around 1MPG if I open up so the FRS has amazing fuel economy in comparison
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Old 06-30-2020, 01:39 PM   #23
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I may simply end up with rigging up sport mode on engine start (with a delay as mentioned) and manage my MPGs with RPMs for now.
I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned but there is no Sport mode on a MT and the AT Sport mode is just for changes in the gearbox. There's no setting that changes throttle response on this car as standard.
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Old 06-30-2020, 02:20 PM   #24
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interdasting, it certainly feels different but that may be only my impressions taking off from a stop. is there a definitive source or side-by-side test comparing VSC Sport mode vs. normal in a straight line?
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Old 06-30-2020, 02:36 PM   #25
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You can change the throttle mapping and response in the tune. Or you can buy a pedal commander thats plug n play in 2 minutes to do the same.

What are your ltft / stft?
the throttle unless right after a ecu reset/reflash is generally considered pretty good for DBW and praised by many. Possibly you have a vacuum and or exhaust leak causing this “delay” feeling.
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Old 06-30-2020, 02:49 PM   #26
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you seem to be mad about something or have a point to prove, are you ok man? no need to get defensive if you haven't driven purpose-built cars with better DBW systems lol. if you have and still think the FRS/BRZ system is the bee's knees that's OK i guess.

the comparison of FRS/BRZ was to the simpler slave designs from the cars of the 90's and 00's not to each other. some very fast SF-based drivers ride their clutch because it's the most convenient way to drive in the city, most of us would just spend the couple hours replacing the clutch when the time comes because riding the clutch saves us the occasional embarassment of slipping the clutch and missing (sometimes i'll be driving a lady around and i want to pretend like i know what i'm doing).

lastly, no knock on you or the cars you've driven but how could you think the FRS/BRZ's DBW system is the closest thing to cable while claiming (or at least alluding to) that you've driven much better machines? Anything AEM infinity, Motec, Haltech is better by a mile is it not?
You were the one starting off talking about trying to fill me in on sporty cars, lol.

I've only driven in San Francisco a few times, but riding your clutch was always hammered in to be something you dont do. Just drive the car.

I guess I should have made a caveat for factory DBW systems, the one in this car is pretty good. As for standalones that is very dependent on setup and tuning.

Please elaborate on all these purpose built DBW standalone cars that you're driving and then comparing to your stock frs.
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Old 06-30-2020, 02:53 PM   #27
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I've got an uphill gravel U-bend driveway.
I use a short tap VSC (vehicle stability control) to go up and around it.
It turns itself off over 30mph.
If I don't do that, the inner wheel hops more and makes bigger divots in the gravel.

VSC button on mode reduces amount of automatic electronic brake stability wierdness.
If you've encountered this turning from a steep street around a corner I can see where this would put you off a bit.

I wish the electronic shenanigans could be shut off, but you can't buy new cars without them anymore.

Had to drive a new Carola a while ago. The automatic depart the f'n road steering assist scared the crap out of me.
Glad they didn't put that in the twins.
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Old 06-30-2020, 04:06 PM   #28
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You can change the throttle mapping and response in the tune. Or you can buy a pedal commander thats plug n play in 2 minutes to do the same.

What are your ltft / stft?
the throttle unless right after a ecu reset/reflash is generally considered pretty good for DBW and praised by many. Possibly you have a vacuum and or exhaust leak causing this “delay” feeling.
it's 100% stock with a relatively recent (not recent in my book, but others may think so) ECU reset about 400 miles ago (1.5 gas tanks). I'll check on the vacuum in the intake system. I don't think there are any vacuum leaks, but all of the resonator/deadspace volume might be contributing to it. I also think that idle is a bit low (it's reading ~600RPM on the tach). Not sure where to find ltft/stft on the stock ECU, is that available somewhere? As far as exhaust leak, it might be hanging up on the lack of backpressure but I severely doubt it on an engine this size lol..



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You were the one starting off talking about trying to fill me in on sporty cars, lol.

I've only driven in San Francisco a few times, but riding your clutch was always hammered in to be something you dont do. Just drive the car.

I guess I should have made a caveat for factory DBW systems, the one in this car is pretty good. As for standalones that is very dependent on setup and tuning.

Please elaborate on all these purpose built DBW standalone cars that you're driving and then comparing to your stock frs.
Right, not everyone has had the opportunity to drive a bunch of different sporty cars. If you have, that's great. I've driven most iterations of most sporty cars that have come out in the last decade and also a bunch of swapped race cars, exotics, etc. If you think the DBW system and pedal feel of the FRS/BRZ is the same or better than that of a modern enthusiast's sports car, that's totally OK, I simply disagree.

you're free to drive however you'd like in your car, I'll drive the way that I do... It's really not that big of a deal to me to ride the clutch. If it is to you and you're concerned with the replacement intervals or costs, that's totally fine and understandable. you've driven a few times in SF, i've driven here for more than a decade on most of the hills. if i found a better way to navigate the hills reliably, i would have done it. i haven't found anything yet, but i'm more than open to it if you have a better approach.

as far as DBW, as a factory system it's comparable in my opinion to the Chevy Cruze and Kia Optima. Better ones in my view are the C7 and C8 corvettes, the later 08-09 s2000's, and even the BMW M cars but that's my opinion on the matter.

I mentioned standalones because you stated that the DBW system in the FRS/BRZ is the closest thing you've gotten to cable. I offered to you that I've driven a number of racecars and swapped cars with full standalone systems because they are far better in terms of feel and adjustability (and to me, indistinguishable to cable). I was making the point that if indeed the FRS was the best DBW system you've ever experienced, you clearly didn't have any experience with fast DBW cars. That's all.
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