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Old 06-30-2020, 10:47 AM   #1373
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Originally Posted by squall leonhart View Post
I'm biased, but this chart would lead me to believe that Toyota's design & engineering heavily impacted the twins to the point that it truly is more of a Toyota than a Subaru, despite the engine, and despite the name stamped all over the chassis.
I think it has more to do with it being a newer model with a different usage than some of the others. If you review the criteria used by Consumer Reports, they include vehicles that are as much as 10 years old in the survey.

Also, the survey is likely to have very few respondents that own a twin, just because of the volume built. Would someone that has heavily modded their car call it "unreliable" or even respond to the survey?

Frankly I think the whole ranking is suspect. Look at the GM spread. Buick is ranked 8, Cadillac is at the bottom and the others are scattered between. Yet, in most cases, it's basically the same vehicle base.

Even the "average scores" column doesn't make sense to me. Is Toyota more reliable than Cadillac? Maybe. Is there that much difference (80 vs 26), sorry don't believe it.
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Old 06-30-2020, 11:55 AM   #1374
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Buick is ranked 8
That's cause Buicks (late Saturns before that) are Opels, designed in Europe mainly for Europe. Then GM swaps the badges.

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Cadillac is at the bottom
Not surprised. Cadillacs are American engineered/designed and most American engineered/designed GM products fail to stick the landing in one or more important areas. Cadillac in particular tries to compete with the Germans. In true GM fashion, their argument is 'We're faster and cheaper'. But as a real life daily driver luxury sports sedan, an ATS or CTS still doesn't hold a candle to a 3/5 series or an equivalent Audi, let alone a Mercedes. Even Lexus, whose cars are pretty much up to par with the germans on every level, and cheaper, can't really break through. I know this doesn't directly impact reliability, but reliability ratings are often skewed by perceived quality. And perceived quality is the germans' bread and butter.

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Yet, in most cases, it's basically the same vehicle base.
yea but an Escalade is way more complicated that a Tahoe, so more problems?


A lot of American brands' reliability rating is lowered due to the piss-poor integration of the infotainment system in the car. Cue sucks, Mylink sucks, Sync mostly sucks, Uconnect sucks. They're universally awful. BMW spent over 1000 hours designing the sound of the door chime alone (probably longer than Ford spent total on the whole system in the last fusion I drove). They spend hundreds of man years per model to make sure the infotainment flows seamlessly with the rest of the car. With GM the cars are just not as well thought through.

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Old 06-30-2020, 12:26 PM   #1375
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A lot of American brand's reliability rating is lowered due to the piss-poor integration of the infotainment system in the car. Cue sucks, Mylink sucks, Sync mostly sucks, connect sucks. em in the last fusion I drove).
I hear what you are saying but none of that is "reliability" in my book. That's usability. The two are not the same.

To me, for a vehicle to be reliable, it needs to get you from point A to point B when you want to get there.

If you are going to include "usability" then you also need to use "affordability". As in, when the car breaks, how much does it cost to fix?

In the end of course, our discussion, like this survey's results, is just opinion. There are no facts behind it, only "feels" of the people surveyed. So, to some extent, people think Toyota's are more reliable because they've been told they were more reliable, but they don't "know" its more reliable than any other car. For that you would have to look at data from repair shops, which you will never get.

I can only speak from my own experience, but I've owned (in relative order of when the first was purchased) multiple vehicles from Dodge, Ford, Audi, Honda, Chevrolet, Saturn, Toyota, Volvo and some of their other sub-brands. I can honestly say I didn't find any of them that more reliable than others. Most were pretty much problem free until around 100,000 miles, and had a few repairs between 100,000 and 200,00 miles. Over 200,000 miles it's just a wait to see what breaks that makes the car no longer worth fixing.

I can't say much about infotainment integration because the most integrated factory car I've owned is the Scion. Everything else has/had third party radios in it. I suppose I'll have to hold that judgement until the next car.

As far as "affordability", GM and Ford are much cheaper to fix, followed by Japanese, then European.
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Old 06-30-2020, 12:48 PM   #1376
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I hear what you are saying but none of that is "reliability" in my book. That's usability. The two are not the same.
Very true but that's unfortunately what affects these ratings.
Nobody in the general public is really interested in which car is more problem free past 200k, they just need to justify their next lease.
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Old 06-30-2020, 01:23 PM   #1377
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That's cause Buicks (late Saturns before that) are Opels, designed in Europe daily for Europe. Then GM swaps the badges.
True for their sedans, but Buick's sales are like 80% SUVs/CUVs...which are almost identical (platform and powertrain) to Chevys and GMCs.
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Old 06-30-2020, 01:53 PM   #1378
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True for their sedans, but Buick's sales are like 80% SUVs/CUVs...which are almost identical (platform and powertrain) to Chevys and GMCs.
True, the Encore is Buick's best seller by a country mile, as they sell literally as many of them than all other models combined. But the Encore is the North American version of the Opel Mokka, engineered by a very german design team.

The Envision does share a platform with the current terrain and equinox, but they're based on the much older 2006 Captiva, coengineerd by Daewoo and Holden.

The Enclave is truly on a Chevy/GMC/Cadillac version of the epsilon platform.
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Old 06-30-2020, 02:09 PM   #1379
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Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo View Post
Fixed, it really was a 50-50 effort:

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5274

The engine is Subaru's basic new engine architecture, but it was a clean sheet design for the Twins that Toyota actively participated in the development of, bringing Toyota tech into it (eg. the head design and injection system). The newer Subaru engines are based on the Twin's motor, not the other way around.
There, I fixed that for you.
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Old 06-30-2020, 02:14 PM   #1380
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There, I fixed that for you.
Yea I should have been more clear. Generally when I say 86 I mean all of them lol.
You are technically correct, the best kind of correct.
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Old 06-30-2020, 06:16 PM   #1381
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Originally Posted by phm14 View Post
I owned a ND... My NC was low miles
So was it an ND or an NC?

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I had to chase down a dropped cylinder
Fortunately the twins have never had any issues or recalls...

All cars experience mechanical failures, recalls etc. ND engines do not seem to be any worse than the FA20 in general, if there was a weak point it was the 6 speed manual gearbox.

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Mazda is at # 12 on our 2018 chart above
That chart is subjective, unreliable and unbelievable (I very much doubt that 86s are objectively more reliable than Camrys or Corollas if you objectively equalised for millions of miles driven). It is also USA specific. In the US many Mazdas are made in Mexico, are they not? In Australia most of our Mazdas are made in Japan, and all MX-5s certainly are. Mazda has very high reliability ratings here in Australia. But in any case, they come with a 5 year unlimited km warranty here, same as Toyota and Subaru, so meh. If it breaks under warranty, Mazda will have to fix it.

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Oh, and the MX5 doesn't have the luggage capacity to take a female passenger on a overnight trip.
Sure it does, unless you pack like the Trumps! Pack light.

Of course the twins have more luggage space, but I donít need much TBH. The RF will be fine for what I need (commuting, quick grocery runs, weekend fangs in the twisties). If I need more space, Iíll borrow my partnerís hatchback. Bear in mind, Iíve gone periods where I didnít even own a car, just a motorbike, and the MX-5 is a luxury of storage and space compared to a Ninja.

I donít rate sportscars on luggage capacity. Does it make sense to argue a hatchback or SUV is a better sportscar then a twin because the twin has less luggage space? No? So itís equally irrelevant that the twin has a bit more than the MX-5.

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I have tracked both cars, and find the the 86 a far better track toy...
I donít plan on tracking it, but in any case, MX-5s have a very good rep as track cars, and their aftermarket support is second to none, even to the twins. If I was going to track it, Iíd mod as needed to address shortcomings. So again, not an issue.

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Other than all that, the Miata is good car, especially if your looking for a disposable $5-6K track toy
Thatís not at all what Iím looking for. I want a good looking (I love the RFís styling, prefer it to the twins), tiny, reliable, fun handling, free revving sportscar with a nice interior for commuting, weekend drives and occassional road trips. I love the idea of having the flexibility to drop the roof on a nice day, or put it up and still have hardtop security (albeit not structurally). And I want it new, with a factory 5 year warranty and no-one elseís farts built up in the seat.

So yeah, you and I are looking for different things, have different priorities in a sportscar. Is it so hard to understand that the car you subjectively feel is perfect for you, is not necessarily perfect for everyone else?

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in that case, I'd build the motor in a cheap, high mileage/lunched/or lightly damaged 86 for that purpose.
I already had an 86 for 5 years. Now I want something new and different. Is that hard to understand? Apparently so.

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But hey, if you're curious
Indeed I shall!
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Old 07-01-2020, 09:50 AM   #1382
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Thumbs up

Thanks Yoshi!
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:56 PM   #1383
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So was it an ND or an NC?



Fortunately the twins have never had any issues or recalls...

All cars experience mechanical failures, recalls etc. ND engines do not seem to be any worse than the FA20 in general, if there was a weak point it was the 6 speed manual gearbox.



That chart is subjective, unreliable and unbelievable (I very much doubt that 86s are objectively more reliable than Camrys or Corollas if you objectively equalised for millions of miles driven). It is also USA specific. In the US many Mazdas are made in Mexico, are they not? In Australia most of our Mazdas are made in Japan, and all MX-5s certainly are. Mazda has very high reliability ratings here in Australia. But in any case, they come with a 5 year unlimited km warranty here, same as Toyota and Subaru, so meh. If it breaks under warranty, Mazda will have to fix it.



Sure it does, unless you pack like the Trumps! Pack light.

Of course the twins have more luggage space, but I donít need much TBH. The RF will be fine for what I need (commuting, quick grocery runs, weekend fangs in the twisties). If I need more space, Iíll borrow my partnerís hatchback. Bear in mind, Iíve gone periods where I didnít even own a car, just a motorbike, and the MX-5 is a luxury of storage and space compared to a Ninja.

I donít rate sportscars on luggage capacity. Does it make sense to argue a hatchback or SUV is a better sportscar then a twin because the twin has less luggage space? No? So itís equally irrelevant that the twin has a bit more than the MX-5.



I donít plan on tracking it, but in any case, MX-5s have a very good rep as track cars, and their aftermarket support is second to none, even to the twins. If I was going to track it, Iíd mod as needed to address shortcomings. So again, not an issue.



Thatís not at all what Iím looking for. I want a good looking (I love the RFís styling, prefer it to the twins), tiny, reliable, fun handling, free revving sportscar with a nice interior for commuting, weekend drives and occassional road trips. I love the idea of having the flexibility to drop the roof on a nice day, or put it up and still have hardtop security (albeit not structurally). And I want it new, with a factory 5 year warranty and no-one elseís farts built up in the seat.

So yeah, you and I are looking for different things, have different priorities in a sportscar. Is it so hard to understand that the car you subjectively feel is perfect for you, is not necessarily perfect for everyone else?



I already had an 86 for 5 years. Now I want something new and different. Is that hard to understand? Apparently so.



Indeed I shall!

Iíve been driving a 2017 Miata RF since Nov. 2018. Iíve fallen more in love over time, but for the first 6 months I was missing the space of the 86. Itís a little hard to say right now what I would prefer because my old 86 had an HKS supercharger and few minor mods beyond that. It certainly had more room and I really loved that car. I had it about 5 years (only first owner) and spent a lot of time messing around on it so I was a bit connected to it. I sold it and bought a used Focus ST and then got rid of that after about 8 months. (FWD sucks) I got the Miata for a great price and it was still on the showroom floor (first owner again). Sometimes I miss the 86 but then remember that it would probably end up having that recall and the aftermath of that scares me.

Performance between the two (without the supercharger on the 86) I would put the Miata on top, hands down. It lacks space (obviously) but itís much more uncomfortable for the passenger since thereís a hump in the floor for the transmission. Add the Bose system and now they have a subwoofer under their feet. Long trip? Forget about laying the seat back to nap (passenger obviously). But road and track? Miata for sure. Itís constantly the winner on comparison videos too.

All that being said, if this GR86 ever comes out Iíll probably be getting that.


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Old 07-01-2020, 03:14 PM   #1384
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I owned a ND Miata, and would not go back to a MX5 from the 86 (just bought my 2nd, a Hakone: nicer interior box checked). I don't think there is much difference in engine sound (w equal length header). My NC was low miles, and I had to chase down a dropped cylinder to a shorting injector wire (IIRC, ~ the same gauge as 6 human hairs). Mazda is at # 12 on our 2018 chart above, falling 6 points in 2 years. Oh, and the MX5 doesn't have the luggage capacity to take a female passenger on a overnight trip. I have tracked both cars, and find the the 86 a far better track toy...no puking coolant after a session, handling, CG, etc. Other than all that, the Miata is good car, especially if your looking for a disposable $5-6K track toy, but in that case, I'd build the motor in a cheap, high mileage/lunched/or lightly damaged 86 for that purpose. But hey, if you're curious
Fwiw Mazda was 3rd in reliability in 2019 according to consumer reports (behind lexus/Toyota)
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...es/2578463001/

I really like the ND, it's just not as practical as the 86. I love Mazda as a company though so our second car is a cx9 signature. Sister also owns a cx9 sig, mom owns a cx5 gt, dad in law has a Mazda 6 gt with the turbo 2.5. All have been very reliable with the only issues being dumb infotainment type issues.

Also, as stated the reliability ratings of consumer reports are heavily affected by minor nuances like infotainment and things like that. It depends on people reporting issues. I would wager that Toyota 86 and BRZ owners are more likely to not give a shit about minor quirks and noises, thus boosting reliability rating.
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Old 07-01-2020, 05:26 PM   #1385
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Meanwhile, no real news on the GR86.
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Old 07-01-2020, 05:33 PM   #1386
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Meanwhile, no real news on the GR86.
I heard from a very reliable source that upon release, it will roll on surfaces intended for motor vehicle travel, and will be centered around assisting occupant relocation as designated by the occupant!
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