All-New 2022 Subaru BRZ Makes Global Debut

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

I have no clue... well I can guess what's gonna happen, but it's not official from Toyota/Subaru.



Lack of passion doesn't mean, there isn't a greedy ppl who wants some honey out of this car. Sound mean to say it, but hearing some of the back end stuff makes me sad. This is what happens when passionate staffs get pushed & shoved around. Higher up greedy ppl put "Yes sir" staffs to work on it instead of passionate staffs. Giving some of the engineers who kept that passion for this gen gets some props, cuz they really did work hard to make pointless shit out of this car much as they can. Early last yr info I heard was totally nightmare... but they def turn things around.



86/BRZ have been pushed around by both parents. BRZ have always been unwanted from Subaru. While Toyota was advertising 86 like mad crazy... But you know one yr Subaru start pushing BRZ more and more, while Toyota kinda fade away? Yeah... wonder why coughnextgenteamdecidedcough

Hopefully next gen will see some stage... but only time will tell.

As always, I love to hear your inputs, and thank you for giving us a little insight. I know you can’t get more specific than what you tell us, but it is important to me and many on here.
We are all here because we are passionate about the FR-S, 86, and BRZ. I’m a lifelong Subaru nerd, I spent more time on NASIOC than I can count. When this platform was announced, it was literally a dream come true knowing both Subaru and Toyota would be working on it. And yeah, it’s lived up to my expectations. Could it have been a little faster? Of course. But I can feel the passion that went into this car every time I drive it. It’s unlike anything else in this price range. The car industry is tough, and I think I can safely guess Toyota and Subaru haven’t become rich from this car.
I will be supporting Subaru with my next purchase. Most likely a 2nd gen BRZ. I know this car wouldn’t exist without Toyota’s input, but I like the continued support that Subaru has given this platform. They build it and are way more invested (in my opinion). I think you touched on something very interesting. Toyota sort of led the charge for the initial FR-S/BRZ, but it feels like they almost immediately veered off the battlefield, and left Subaru to fight. I’m not happy with how Toyota will only partner with someone else to build a sports car. How can Mazda do it alone? Nissan? Ford? Chevrolet? Porsche? Dodge?!! Nissan should be planning on building electric CUV’s not the 400Z, and I fu**ing love it!! I don’t want to sound like I don’t think Toyota isn’t changing things, and focusing on fun to drive cars. But they sound like the ultimate rule by committee company. All Japanese companies have had to scale things back for a long time, and I totally get that.


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[ZDan]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I've never had oil or coolant temp problems with my '17 at the track, even on 95F days when my '11 2.9 Cayman would have coolant temp creep up and I'd have to back off after a few laps. Coolant and oil temps in the BRZ always stabilized. I've never had to back off or come in due to climbing temps.

Originally Posted by Dake

You've also not had the new engine in your car at the track.

That's right, because I've not had need for a "new engine"...

272F is not a big deal for oil, running 30 or 40 weight puts viscosity in a decent range, and no, an oil cooler is not necessary to track these cars.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by ToySub1946

Nice to now know that they've retained both under hood sounds at idle.


Engine sounds like a thrashing machine.


Crickets still loud and clear.

It is still an FA engine with DI/PI injection. I don't know why anyone would expect to sound any different.

Originally Posted by ZDan

That's right, because I've not had need for a "new engine"...

272F is not a big deal for oil, running 30 or 40 weight puts viscosity in a decent range, and no, an oil cooler is not necessary to track these cars.

I think his comment refers to the engine in the 2nd gen, though again, I don't know what people expect since it is still an FA based engine. I expect the same limitations.

I know you have made this comment before about oil weights and not running an oil cooler. I have noticed on my pressure gauge the oil pump seems to cavitate above 5800 rpm if I run 5-30 or heavier oil and my peak pressures are not any higher because of it. I haven't ruled out the position of my sending unit as the issue, but it is just something I have observed.

[DarkSideFRS]

I wish Toyota would just use their own motor for the 2nd gen.. I lost total confidence in Subaru boxer motors after all the recall headaches... Never touching anything that is co-developed... Toyota techs have no idea how to work on motors made by other manufacturers (good luck supra owners lol)

[Cephas]

Originally Posted by DarkSideFRS

I wish Toyota would just use their own motor for the 2nd gen.. I lost total confidence in Subaru boxer motors after all the recall headaches... Never touching anything that is co-developed... Toyota techs have no idea how to work on motors made by other manufacturers (good luck supra owners lol)

I got bad news for ya'... Co-developed platforms are basically where everything is going. It's already been this way for some time. Yamaha building motors for Volvo, Volvo building motors for Ford, Subaru building a motor (and most of the rest of the car) for Toyota, Toyota slapping a body kit on a Z4 and calling it a Supra... Lots of economic reasons for this, and it won't slow down as long as car companies continue to take financial interests in each other.

That said, the FA20 hasn't been that bad, after the early model year woes were over. Nothing like the trail of disaster that, say, Nissan's QR25DE motor was, at significantly lower power numbers. The boxer is unlikely to be as rock-solid as some of Toyota's native power plants, sure. But it also makes a lot more juice, sounds loads better, and lowers the CG of the car as an added bonus.

[Dirty Harry]

Originally Posted by JesseG

I’m not happy with how Toyota will only partner with someone else to build a sports car.

They have built the GR Yaris on their own and no it’s not just a Yaris with a better engine. Basically it has its own chassis, unique engine and different body panels. It’s a new sports car with a Yaris looking body on it.

[Red-86]

Originally Posted by Dirty Harry

They have built the GR Yaris on their own and no it’s not just a Yaris with a better engine. Basically it has its own chassis, unique engine and different body panels. It’s a new sports car with a Yaris looking body on it.

IMO a hot hatch is not a sports car. It’s... well, a ‘hot hatch’ i.e. its own category.

A sports car IMO has to be a dedicated coupe or roadster, preferably with RWD, which is designed primarily for handling and performance, instead of practicality. You typically sit low in the car, and get a sports car like driving experience.

A hot hatch, on the other hand, is a more practical car, typically FWD or AWD upgraded for performance. They can be very quick, often quicker than dedicated sports cars like the MX-5 or BRZ, but they never completely leave their cheaper, mainstream car origins behind.

I realise not everyone agrees, but to me they are different segments, even if they sometimes share the same kind of thrill seeking buyer.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Guff

I just hope the damn bumpers stay on the car in this gen

Well if you left them alone they stayed in place just fine on the old ones as well.
When I sold the FRS the first thing the guys said when he looked at it is "There is no bumper gap"

[Dirty Harry]

Originally Posted by Red-86

IMO a hot hatch is not a sports car. It’s... well, a ‘hot hatch’ i.e. its own category.

A sports car IMO has to be a dedicated coupe or roadster, preferably with RWD, which is designed primarily for handling and performance, instead of practicality. You typically sit low in the car, and get a sports car like driving experience.

A hot hatch, on the other hand, is a more practical car, typically FWD or AWD upgraded for performance. They can be very quick, often quicker than dedicated sports cars like the MX-5 or BRZ, but they never completely leave their cheaper, mainstream car origins behind.

I realise not everyone agrees, but to me they are different segments, even if they sometimes share the same kind of thrill seeking buyer.

Technically it is a unique dedicated sports coupe. But understand how it is linked to the Yaris and people think of it as a hot hatch....but

From this article below, worth a read:

https://www.caradvice.com.au/894381/...s-car-of-2020/

“One never mentions chassis origins when discussing hot hatches. After all, commonality is a big proponent of their affordability, so we’re told.

The star alumni from this class all share their genes with grocery getters – be it the Hyundai i30N, Honda Civic Type R (EP3), Volkswagen Golf 7 R, or the Renault Megane RS trilogy, to name my picks.

Those cars above are not belittled by such a fact. Nor does it mean that regular-based performance cars cannot rise above the sum of their parts.

All we know to date however, are all hot hatches with humble beginnings from something cheap, and pedestrian. That’s where the Toyota GR Yaris flips the script. It takes its lines from the playbook that Porsche uses.

Its platform? Unique; in a sense of marrying two-existing things to create something entirely new. Nothing else uses this platform, and nothing else likely will.

Could be why Toyota Japan specifically refers to it as a 'sports car'?“

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Cephas

I got bad news for ya'... Co-developed platforms are basically where everything is going. It's already been this way for some time. Yamaha building motors for Volvo, Volvo building motors for Ford, Subaru building a motor (and most of the rest of the car) for Toyota, Toyota slapping a body kit on a Z4 and calling it a Supra... Lots of economic reasons for this, and it won't slow down as long as car companies continue to take financial interests in each other.

That said, the FA20 hasn't been that bad, after the early model year woes were over. Nothing like the trail of disaster that, say, Nissan's QR25DE motor was, at significantly lower power numbers. The boxer is unlikely to be as rock-solid as some of Toyota's native power plants, sure. But it also makes a lot more juice, sounds loads better, and lowers the CG of the car as an added bonus.

This ^
The co designed and built specialty cars go back a long long way. Joint ventures are often the only way things got built. As surprising number of cars over the decades used a different companies engines or chassis but unless you followed those models you never even knew.
Hell, at some points they even made whole new companies just to do joint ventures.





The FA20 is a great little engine but so many just hate it and want something else because... well in many cases just because it is a boxer.
As you said there were some brief and limited problems but those are what people remember not the majority that never complained because they had no issues.
Back to DSM as another example of that phenomenon. They had one engine for two model years that might have crank walk issues but if you listen to the internet it was every engine they every made that was going to self destruct. The reality was it was somewhere in the hundreds but it is such a common myth it is meme worthy.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by DarkSideFRS

Toyota techs have no idea how to work on motors made by other manufacturers (good luck supra owners lol)

Again, had nothing to do with them being Toyota techs. The engine had a unique approach to sealing that was not common on other boxer engines. Suburu techs screwed it up by not following the directions just like Toyota techs did.

The primary difference is that the Toyota techs had more opportunities to screw it up because the early ratio of FRS vs BRZ highly favored Toyota.

At this point Toyota actually has more experience with this engine than does Subaru, at least at the dealership level.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

I know you have made this comment before about oil weights and not running an oil cooler. I have noticed on my pressure gauge the oil pump seems to cavitate above 5800 rpm if I run 5-30 or heavier oil and my peak pressures are not any higher because of it. I haven't ruled out the position of my sending unit as the issue, but it is just something I have observed.

What oil temperature? If my oil temp was ~250ish, I'd run 0w20. But since it runs 270-275, I run 5w30, which at that temp has the same viscosity as 0w20 at 250.
Chart from this thread shows higher oil pressure with 5w30 vs. 0w20:
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91820
Thread on cavitation issue, addressed with modified KillerB pickup tube and other mods suggests cavitation not a real problem below 7600?
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134863
Do you have data showing falling pressure at 5800+? Honestly this concerns me a lot more than oil temps up to 275...

Anyway, my point was related to oil temps with the current car in my experience haven't been a real problem, though many perceive it as a problem... The new car has the Forester type oil/water oil cooler/heater, which on the current car has been shown to lower oil temps on-track by anywhere from 0 to 15F. We'll see what we get for oil temps once people start tracking the new car. Probably in the 260F-270F range, which wouldn't concern me for my usage but some may still prefer to run an oil cooler...

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Again, had nothing to do with them being Toyota techs. The engine had a unique approach to sealing that was not common on other boxer engines. Suburu techs screwed it up by not following the directions just like Toyota techs did.

The primary difference is that the Toyota techs had more opportunities to screw it up because the early ratio of FRS vs BRZ highly favored Toyota.

At this point Toyota actually has more experience with this engine than does Subaru, at least at the dealership level.

I will never understand this whole "techs don't know different engines" thought process.

Are the techs in the US bred specifically for one make and have some inherent gene that prevents them from understanding any engine but that? Is there a law that says a tech from one make must only work on that one and never switch to a different brand? Are there different techs for each engine within a brand? Are the ones that work on 4 cylinder engines baffled when there are 6 or 8? How do all the DIY guys with no training and minimal experience manage to work on their engines if the techs are so confused? How do speed shops and independent garages deal with the different types of cars?


The whole concept that dealership techs are unable to work on an engine because it is different is laughable and probably one of the dumbest and most pretentious (since the person saying it invariable makes a big deal that they do all their own work) things that car forums can come up with.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ZDan

What oil temperature? If my oil temp was ~250ish, I'd run 0w20. But since it runs 270-275, I run 5w30, which at that temp has the same viscosity as 0w20 at 250.
Chart from this thread shows higher oil pressure with 5w30 vs. 0w20:
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91820
Thread on cavitation issue, addressed with modified KillerB pickup tube and other mods suggests cavitation not a real problem below 7600?
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134863
Do you have data showing falling pressure at 5800+? Honestly this concerns me a lot more than oil temps up to 275...

Anyway, my point was related to oil temps with the current car in my experience haven't been a real problem, though many perceive it as a problem... The new car has the Forester type oil/water oil cooler/heater, which on the current car has been shown to lower oil temps on-track by anywhere from 0 to 15F. We'll see what we get for oil temps once people start tracking the new car. Probably in the 260F-270F range, which wouldn't concern me for my usage but some may still prefer to run an oil cooler...

And maybe some brave soul will disconnect the oil cooler and plug the vents to see what the actual temperatures are without them. Willing to bet it ain't pretty.