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GR86 General Topics (2nd Gen 2022+ Toyota 86) General topics for the GR86 second-gen 86


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Old 02-05-2022, 02:25 PM   #533
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Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
Not all but a lot. Stealerships are a big oligopoly scam. The very opposite of free market when a person can’t order their own car straight from the manufacturer. Between them and the ultra wealthy snagging spots only to flip the car for a huge market, sliding money under the table, prices are ridiculous at every price point.

I wonder how long people will continue to be squeezed dry before they pop.

Remember when dealerships stood up with pitchforks when Tesla decided to cut out the middle man?
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Old 02-05-2022, 03:24 PM   #534
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Remember when dealerships stood up with pitchforks when Tesla decided to cut out the middle man?
Yes I do.

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According to one survey, more than half of dealership customers would prefer to buy directly from the manufacturer, without any monetary incentives to do so. An analyst report of a direct sales model is estimated to cut the cost of a vehicle by 8.6%.[11] This implies an even greater demand currently exists for a direct manufacturer sales model. However, state laws in the United States prohibit manufacturers from selling directly, and customers must buy new cars through a dealer.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_..._United_States


It would be nice to buy direct. It is amazing Tesla vehicles sell as well as they do considering the road blocks in place.

https://www.motorhills.com/why-cant-...-to-consumers/
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Old 02-05-2022, 04:26 PM   #535
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I wonder how long people will continue to be squeezed dry before they pop.
You just have to look. I happened by a Cadillac dealer yesterday and noticed they had an AT4-V in the showroom (Infrared Tincoat). I stopped to try it on for size. (Nice car BTW).

The dealer's price on the vehicle was $500 under MSRP. They had nothing on their lot that was more than MSRP.
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Old 02-05-2022, 05:12 PM   #536
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To anyone defending dealerships on this forum... a dealership contacted me nearby telling me they got a base model MT GR86 coming in but they are doing a $15,000 mark up.

Someone help me come up with a good response for laughs.
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Old 02-06-2022, 03:18 AM   #537
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Tesla just displayed the drawback of direct sales model by increasing their MSRP’s numerous times.

The mark-up is built in to the MSRP, which is even worse in my opinion.

https://www.torquenews.com/1083/tesl...4-one-year/amp

My sister leased her Tesla Model Y Long Range with a 49,990 configured price last April.

That’s a $9,000 “market adjustment” not even a year later. And that $9k gets built into the MSRP.

Obviously you can’t go to a Tesla dealer and say “this car was $9k less 10 months ago…you’ve got to do better than MSRP”

They even do it the developing-FSD software I get that they’re adding features but… $2k adjustment

https://www.reuters.com/technology/t...ys-2022-01-08/

Just look at us here in this thread. Almost all of us looked for a dealer doing MSRP. Imagine if the sale were direct-to-customer. How would people who are waitlisted react if overnight SUBARU/TOYOTA raised the MSRP by $2500?
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Old 02-06-2022, 03:25 AM   #538
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The dealership model is basically a glorified flea market.

When it’s a buyer’s market, dealers are fighting for business by quoting cars $2-3k below invoice or about $5k off MSRP.

Man, I was selling 2018 and 2019 BRZ’s for $3000 below invoice too. 86’s had rebates, AND dealers were doing additional discounts.

On a separate note, I got a 2018 GTI for almost $3k below invoice. MSRP was like $28k and sale prices was $23500-ish.

I drove home and felt so good about that deal. In my head…”got a $28k car for $23.5k” EDIT: with no negotiating! First offer on internet quote

But apparently people would rather be saying “got a $23.5k car for $23.5k?”
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Old 02-06-2022, 10:27 PM   #539
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Tesla just displayed the drawback of direct sales model by increasing their MSRP’s numerous times.

The mark-up is built in to the MSRP, which is even worse in my opinion.

https://www.torquenews.com/1083/tesl...4-one-year/amp

My sister leased her Tesla Model Y Long Range with a 49,990 configured price last April.

That’s a $9,000 “market adjustment” not even a year later. And that $9k gets built into the MSRP.

Obviously you can’t go to a Tesla dealer and say “this car was $9k less 10 months ago…you’ve got to do better than MSRP”

They even do it the developing-FSD software I get that they’re adding features but… $2k adjustment

https://www.reuters.com/technology/t...ys-2022-01-08/

Just look at us here in this thread. Almost all of us looked for a dealer doing MSRP. Imagine if the sale were direct-to-customer. How would people who are waitlisted react if overnight SUBARU/TOYOTA raised the MSRP by $2500?
I disagree. The inherent problem with dealer pricing is that there's inherent price discrimination. Ask any female about their thoughts about buying a car from a dealer. With the OEM market adjusting, it's fair, the price is transparent, everyone gets charged the same amount. Also, until the Model 3 came out, Teslas were pretty much being sold at cost or a loss.

The lack of transparency that people loathe, that you could walk into the same dealer, same day, and walk out with very different deals. And that's before we even get to the financing part.
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Old 02-06-2022, 11:07 PM   #540
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I agree with both the "unfair" part about dealing with dealerships, and @Veloist's point that being able to buy these cars at MSRP is a privilege, not a given.

There was this guy on FB that was calling anyone who'd pay even a dollar over MSRP a <bad word>. This is just clearly thinking that buying at MSRP is a privilege...

If a dealer offers me a car for $100 over MSRP available right now, I'll take it over an identical car that another dealer is willing to sell at MSRP, but won't commit to any pickup date yet. Heck, I might even be ok to pay a few hundred over MSRP. If that guy is willing to wait a few extra days, weeks or even months just because of his principle — good luck to him.

You want guaranteed MSRP, with no increases in MSRP over time? Be careful what you wish for:

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Obtaining a car in the USSR
[...], the Soviet government used a queue system for the distribution of automobiles. By the 1960s, citizens could only get a car by applying through their place of work, and distribution was sporadic and required background checks. Exceptions were made for party officials and union leaders, while nepotism and bribery were rife (although waiting lists in these cases could still take years). A popular joke in the west that waiting lists for cars in the Soviet Union were ten years long, and this was actually true in some cases; average waiting times were roughly four years in the 1960s, and six or seven years in the 1970s and 1980s. The demand for cars was so high that values actually rose over time, and there is anecdotal evidence of people selling 10 year old cars for double the original price, but it was very rare that people would part with their car.
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Old 02-07-2022, 02:58 AM   #541
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Don't misconstrue the free market and price discrimination. While ADM isn't exactly predatory, it does fall into the dubious category in that they apply the ADM but then oftentimes will discount it based on who's Infront of them. In essence they're trying to catch someone not paying attention.

I understand it's a free market, and I'll even say I understand that in current times dealers need to make up for all the inventory they don't have, but this whole song and dance is just exhausting.

Consider this, if dealer A can charge an ADM because they're in an urban center and have high traffic and demand, and dealer B 100 miles away has to discount their cars because they don't have the same foot traffic, if you were the OEM, wouldnt you be better off shifting that inventory from dealer B to A?

In any rate, I'm not really as passionate about being anti ADM, I understand the economics behind it. Fundamentally, I can't lay ADM on any car that I know in about a year or two from no, barring something drastically changing, will be discounted routinely. If I were buying say a GT3 RS where you essentially need an in to get one and markups are the norm (but they hold their value) then it is what it is. This stuff going on with the gr86 is just laughable, frankly there are times I'm wandering to other cars, or loathing Toyota as a whole because Subaru is doing a much better job in keeping the clients happy with essentially the same car. This is why Toyota doesn't like this sort of business practice.
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Old 02-07-2022, 04:26 AM   #542
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There’s way too many factors. This discussion can be whole college course.

Car dealerships can get away with ADM’s and sale prices variation from customer to customer mainly due to cars being big-ticket items and the fact that every individual has a different value when it comes to a numerical amount of money.

In my 7 years of car sales and clients, there is absolutely no correlation between someone’s income, gender, age, etc…for the price over/under MSRP they are comfortable paying for a car.

If they need it or want it:
They will buy it IF they know they can afford it OR if they think they can afford it.
They will not buy it IF they know they cannot afford OR if they think they cannot afford it.

It’s one of many flaws of humanity but it’s inevitable that currency and value of money is different for every one. THIS is what the current car dealership model, that many lobbyists fought years for, exploits.

Dig deeper and theres the whole topic of high pressure from Manufacturer-to-dealer volume quotas—and how it results in low-profit deals— as well as how high-profit deals (from exploiting the human flaw of variations in the value of certain amount of money) need to make up for the low-profit deals. Also how the need for low-profit deals results in competition among dealerships as a result of the high pressure from volume quotas.

In a nutshell,

-Manufacturer wants to hit a goal. Hitting goal makes them lots of $$$.
- they give every dealer a sky-high quota.
- dealers need to sell cars at a low profit to hit sky-high Quotas
- dealers may even need to fight for business against competing dealers by selling at super low profits
- dealers need to make up for low profit sales with high profit sales
- high profit sales come from exploiting human flaw regarding value of money (described above)
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Old 02-07-2022, 07:57 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by Veloist View Post
There’s way too many factors. This discussion can be whole college course.

Car dealerships can get away with ADM’s and sale prices variation from customer to customer mainly due to cars being big-ticket items and the fact that every individual has a different value when it comes to a numerical amount of money.

In my 7 years of car sales and clients, there is absolutely no correlation between someone’s income, gender, age, etc…for the price over/under MSRP they are comfortable paying for a car.

If they need it or want it:
They will buy it IF they know they can afford it OR if they think they can afford it.
They will not buy it IF they know they cannot afford OR if they think they cannot afford it.

It’s one of many flaws of humanity but it’s inevitable that currency and value of money is different for every one. THIS is what the current car dealership model, that many lobbyists fought years for, exploits.

Dig deeper and theres the whole topic of high pressure from Manufacturer-to-dealer volume quotas—and how it results in low-profit deals— as well as how high-profit deals (from exploiting the human flaw of variations in the value of certain amount of money) need to make up for the low-profit deals. Also how the need for low-profit deals results in competition among dealerships as a result of the high pressure from volume quotas.

In a nutshell,

-Manufacturer wants to hit a goal. Hitting goal makes them lots of $$$.
- they give every dealer a sky-high quota.
- dealers need to sell cars at a low profit to hit sky-high Quotas
- dealers may even need to fight for business against competing dealers by selling at super low profits
- dealers need to make up for low profit sales with high profit sales
- high profit sales come from exploiting human flaw regarding value of money (described above)
The biggest issue I have ever seen with the complainers is they tend to not think of car dealerships as a business. Cars are expensive so people often think they are high profit. As you touch on they are not high profit at all. They are low profit high volume items.

Dealerships employ many people and all of those people depend on their jobs to live on. This does not make them shady, dishonest or any of the other things people imply by such terms as "stealerships".

Would the people that like to complain so bitterly take a pay cut every time somebody walked into their company and wanted a discount? "OK Bill so the customer that wanted that new program code written says it costs too much so in order to make the sale we have to cut your pay by half. Now get working". How long would people put up with that?

The most fun is when the people that whined so much about the price of the new car go to sell it they will also whine that they don't get as much as they wanted for it.

All in all if people don't like the price that is offered it is a simple "no thanks" not a reason to attack the whole system because it doesn't meet your personal desires at that point in time. Just wait and the deal you are looking for will probably appear.
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Old 02-07-2022, 08:11 AM   #544
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You want guaranteed MSRP, with no increases in MSRP over time? Be careful what you wish for:
Not sure I've ever heard much of that.. I think the key thing car buyers have always wanted is some confidence they're not being screwed. MSRP was always a somewhat meaningless number for most cars because very few ever sold at that. That actually bothered me, especially before the tools were there on the internet to help sort that out. OK, so what should I pay? Getting a good deal on a car is just another one of those culturally perceived man things, like grilling a good steak, being able to drive stick. I, THE IMPORTANT MAN-CUSTOMER, AM HERE TO BUY CAR. FEAR ME. APPEASE ME WITH BELOW INVOICE DEAL.

Now things are basically flipped the other way around. MSRP is mostly a given. Makes things easier if you can accept the market realities. I have to imagine this is welcomed by car salesman, not necessarily because of the higher average sales prices (which doesn't mean as much when there are so few cars to sell) but in making the job easier. Way less haggling with MAN I imagine.

Edit - forgot my main point, which is that the worst thing about the ADM stuff these days is how it looms over the fears of being screwed. Like the Bronco people who waited over a year believing they were going to pay the price written on the piece of paper* they signed when they dropped the huge deposit, only to find "sorry, there's just nothing we can do" about the $10,000 markup that was applied when they came in to pick it up.

*oops, that piece of paper wasn't the correct binding document

To be clear, I don't think there is a lot of this going on, but when you hear these stories it really solidifies your resolve to not pay a dime over MSRP.
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Old 02-07-2022, 09:27 AM   #545
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MSRP was always a somewhat meaningless number for most cars because very few ever sold at that. ..
How is this different from any other product you buy every day? Just about every product has a MSRP, and nearly every one of them at some point are sold at a discount. The only difference is at car dealerships you have to negotiate that discount rather than it being a sale, and know the price going in.

For example,grocery store A has the prices are posted, and they have regular sales on products that are published and the same for everyone, Grocer B posts prices that match the regular price of Grocer A, but that doesn't really mean anything because when you get to the cash register you have to negotiate each item, or the overall purchase price of your purchase. Everyone in line with you has to do that, and no one pays the same thing for anything.

Which grocer are you going to go to? If Grocer B excites you, I guess you like car dealership pricing models. I'd rather go to a place where I know when they are having a sale, and when I'll have to pay regular price. It's one of the things that attracted me to Saturn, Scion and CarMax. It is also why I know which dealers in my area I'll deal with, and which ones I won't.
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Old 02-07-2022, 11:23 AM   #546
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How is this different from any other product you buy every day? Just about every product has a MSRP, and nearly every one of them at some point are sold at a discount. The only difference is at car dealerships you have to negotiate that discount rather than it being a sale, and know the price going in.
I believe that it’s because of the history of car sales in USA and because it’s a big-ticket item:

Quote:
Car dealerships can get away with ADM’s and sale prices variation from customer to customer mainly due to cars being big-ticket items and the fact that every individual has a different value when it comes to a numerical amount of money.
In summary…$50,000 (example) for a car is a different amount of money for everybody.

Then it’s the history…there was a time when car sales did not require the monroney sticker. A dealership could sell a car for whatever they wanted to—and that’s still how it is today because of lobbyists and general power of large companies. The difference today is the Federal Trade Commission and other trade-related and consumer-protection governing bodies.
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