Any good reason to stick with 1st Gen?

[PBR]

Obviously. Have a good night.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by PBR

Because I've been paid for my driving skills. You?

GET OFF THE CAR YOU'RE GOING TO SCRATCH IT


sorry. got distracted for a sec there

[PBR]

Originally Posted by soundman98

GET OFF THE CAR YOU'RE GOING TO SCRATCH IT


sorry. got distracted for a sec there

Lol. I'm obviously being a bit of an ass. But what if I told y'all it's OK that the new gen is brilliant where gen 1 was not. And that's OK. Because it's true. And here's the best part. Pay off your gen 1 and then in a few years pick one of the gen 2s on the cheap. Win/win.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by PBR

Lol. I'm obviously being a bit of an ass. But what if I told y'all it's OK that the new gen is brilliant where gen 1 was not. And that's OK. Because it's true. And here's the best part. Pay off your gen 1 and then in a few years pick one of the gen 2s on the cheap. Win/win.

it really depends on what one is interested in. the newest gen loses significant points for the digital dash in my book. i already played the 'screens everywhere' game about 12 years ago when i ran a carpc. i like my night vision, and needles.

could i get a 2nd gen? absolutely. the sales prices on good-condition 1st gen's make the trade-in value really good, to the point it would be minimal money out of pocket even.

but imo, the 2nd gen traded away some of the raw-ness that the 1st gen had. i like the specs of the newer motor. i like the structural improvements. but i can't get into the styling. it just lacks the aesthetic that interests me...

[PBR]

Originally Posted by soundman98

it really depends on what one is interested in. the newest gen loses significant points for the digital dash in my book. i already played the 'screens everywhere' game about 12 years ago when i ran a carpc. i like my night vision, and needles.

could i get a 2nd gen? absolutely. the sales prices on good-condition 1st gen's make the trade-in value really good, to the point it would be minimal money out of pocket even.

but imo, the 2nd gen traded away some of the raw-ness that the 1st gen had. i like the specs of the newer motor. i like the structural improvements. but i can't get into the styling. it just lacks the aesthetic that interests me...

Fair enough. I like everything better about the new one except the steering wheel. This one has buttons. My old one didn't.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by soundman98

but imo, the 2nd gen traded away some of the raw-ness that the 1st gen had. i like the specs of the newer motor. i like the structural improvements.

My thoughts exactly. The more reviews I watch and read, especially comparisons by gen 1 owners, the more I think that they made the car less raw. It's the same story in most sports cars - the first Cayman generation (the 987) is the most raw, with each subsequent generation losing some more of that for the sake of refinement. When I test drove an ND2 Miata after test driving the BRZ I eventually bought it felt like a GTI, even with the top down. The BRZ felt like a race car in comparison.

I guess for most people a more refined car is better. But I'm looking for the raw experience, so improvements in that direction are a negative for me.

[PBR]

I had a 987 and a 997. I agree the 718 and the 991 lost their way. Not a fan. But they were new chassis and designs. This is the same chassis, not with NVH and "softer" upgrades. All the upgrades make it a much-more hard-core sports car. The interior is also louder and there's no luxury to be found. So how exactly is the new car less raw? I do not believe it is. By refined i mean a much stiffer front end that is definitely easier to place, and engine that actually makes torque and has power everywhere. The rear end breaks away like magic and now you can actually hold a decent slide. I'd still say the ride quality, NVH and interior are more raw in a Gen 1/Gen 2 than an ND2.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by PBR

This is the same chassis, not with NVH and "softer" upgrades. All the upgrades make it a much-more hard-core sports car. The interior is also louder and there's no luxury to be found. So how exactly is the new car less raw? I do not believe it is. By refined i mean a much stiffer front end that is definitely easier to place, and engine that actually makes torque and has power everywhere. The rear end breaks away like magic and now you can actually hold a decent slide. I'd still say the ride quality, NVH and interior are more raw in a Gen 1/Gen 2 than an ND2.

You may be right. I'm reserving final judgement until I drive a gen 2 (which will probably be a while).

[Robertw]

NVH = more raw? Cool, replace the factory rubber bushings with some 75D poly bushings, then start rattling the fillings out of your teeth and enjoy your new raw feeling car. I did it that with my e36 M3. It was great on track, and even better waiting at a red light not being able to see anything in my mirrors because the entire car was vibrating.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Robertw

NVH = more raw? Cool, replace the factory rubber bushings with some 75D poly bushings, then start rattling the fillings out of your teeth and enjoy your new raw feeling car. I did it that with my e36 M3. It was great on track, and even better waiting at a red light not being able to see anything in my mirrors because the entire car was vibrating.

NVH certainly is a (big?) part of that. Some reviewers of the 911 GT3 mentioned that it has much less sound insulation than a regular 911 and that helps makes the car feel more raw. Soft bushings don't necessarily impact only NVH, but also the way the car reacts to driver inputs and road surface changes. This is all about feel, and most people do feel mods that are louder exhaust, stiffer bushings/inserts and shorter/heavier controls (like short shifters or the clutch cylinder swap).

Would a cushy and isolated car become raw if you just strip all sound insulation and replace all bushings with poly? It might, but my impression is that there is something else there as well.

To me the rawness also relates very much to the sensation of speed - the Twins feel fast going 30, while some sport cars feel slow going 90. I've read various attempts to explain that, from the height of the seat relative to the road to NVH to the parts of the car you see in your peripheral vision while driving.

At the end of the day everyone has their own preference, but it's something that it quite obvious when experienced. I can easily say which car feels more raw after a short drive, but my conclusion might not match yours either.

[sds]

The Gen 2 is just as "raw" as the Gen 1 (it is, at the end of the day, still a ~2750lb 2+2). The only quality of life improvement that makes it feel more "refined" and "cushy" is that the motor has substantially more torque.

I also reckon a lot of Gen 1 impressions are comparing a modified car (suspension, exhaust) to a stock Gen 2.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by sds

I also reckon a lot of Gen 1 impressions are comparing a modified car (suspension, exhaust) to a stock Gen 2.

That's actually my concern when I'll have a chance of driving a gen 2 - I'll be comparing it against my modified gen 1 BRZ.

I'm eagerly awaiting an in depth comparison of gen 1 and gen 2 Twins from some serious reviewers - back to back with several drivers comparing impressions on track and street.

[humdizzle]

the 1st gen was unrefined. cheap materials. switches rattled. stereo was god awful. If you're tracking the car these things don't matter. But a majority of people don't track and want to use it on the road to do normal road things... road trips, visiting friends/family, grocery runs.

the fact that toyota/subaru improved nearly everything in the car for daily driving (comfort, torque, stereo, chassis) AND kept the weight down is pretty remarkable. i'm sure there was alot of R&D improvement as well based on the millions of miles of customer data. and just advancements in technology and materials as time goes on.

similar to the e92 to f80 m3 transition. they improved everything and kept the weight the same. (ok they did drop that glorious v8 for a turbo-6 for more low end, but we don't have the turbo problem here).

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by humdizzle

the 1st gen was unrefined. cheap materials. switches rattled. stereo was god awful. If you're tracking the car these things don't matter. But a majority of people don't track and want to use it on the road to do normal road things... road trips, visiting friends/family, grocery runs.

the fact that toyota/subaru improved nearly everything in the car for daily driving (comfort, torque, stereo, chassis) AND kept the weight down is pretty remarkable. i'm sure there was alot of R&D improvement as well based on the millions of miles of customer data. and just advancements in technology and materials as time goes on.

similar to the e92 to f80 m3 transition. they improved everything and kept the weight the same. (ok they did drop that glorious v8 for a turbo-6 for more low end, but we don't have the turbo problem here).

Most materials between the first and second gen are practically of the same quality. Switchgear is a bit different and the second gen does feel a little bit better in that regard (mainly due to the hvac controls for the center stack). And there is a tad more soft touch stuff used in the second gen in places (like the door cards). The build quality feels just as similar.

From an interior ambience point of view it doesnt feel all that different inside.
The second gen doesnt really feel better, but it definitely feels newer.

Originally Posted by sds

I also reckon a lot of Gen 1 impressions are comparing a modified car (suspension, exhaust) to a stock Gen 2.

I think thats it. My first gen is a bone stock 2020 GT, so the most refined version of the car (which from a ton of reviewers note that its substantially more refined than when it first came out in 2012). I have all the amenity items that the second gen car has so it doesnt feel substantially different to me. Im expecting the power difference to be the biggest thing of note in my case.