Check Engine Burned Into ECU?

[RZNT4R]

Originally Posted by mo4sho

Hey dude,

this is pretty helpful, thanks for providing the clarification on PERMANENT codes. That's interesting that they don't light up the MIL.

Is there a way that I can fixing the circuit high fault? Should I mention this to the service center?

I am going to take the car into a different Subaru service center on Wednesday to see if they have a different finding than the first one. Hopefully I can bring this up when they diagnose it and have them fix that...not sure if it would be covered under the warranty.

Well the only real way to "turn it off" is with the appropriate diagnostic flow chart and a multimeter

Usually, if you start telling an advisor or tech what's wrong with your car before they even look at it, their eyes will glaze over and they'll stop listening to you... It's just the nature of the thing, so many damn times do we get people who don't have a clue telling us what's wrong with their cars and shooting off total nonsense, we eventually get numb to it.

Since your car has an extended warranty you obvs can't go to an independant... well you could if you wanted to pay... so I think you should just change dealership and just mention to them the previous one threw some parts at the evap problem and was getting totally unreasonable wanting to throw an ecu at it, so you want another opinion. Instead of focusing of telling them what code to look for, I'd focus on telling them they focused on the permanent code and mouthed off some nonsense like it being "burned in" instead of just trying to fix the other active codes. That's a round about way of telling them you may not know what's exactly wrong with it, but you know what's a stupid answer to the problem. Also, any shop wants to look good and gain a customer, and they'll probably try to do it better so they can flex on the other dealership and gain your trust. I always get a massive kick out of making dealer techs look like fools when they send us a problem they can't figure out... Usually they can't figure it out because they just aren't looking.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by RZNT4R

Well the only real way to "turn it off" is with the appropriate diagnostic flow chart and a multimeter

Usually, if you start telling an advisor or tech what's wrong with your car before they even look at it, their eyes will glaze over and they'll stop listening to you... It's just the nature of the thing, so many damn times do we get people who don't have a clue telling us what's wrong with their cars and shooting off total nonsense, we eventually get numb to it.

Since your car has an extended warranty you obvs can't go to an independant... well you could if you wanted to pay... so I think you should just change dealership and just mention to them the previous one threw some parts at the evap problem and was getting totally unreasonable wanting to throw an ecu at it, so you want another opinion. Instead of focusing of telling them what code to look for, I'd focus on telling them they focused on the permanent code and mouthed off some nonsense like it being "burned in" instead of just trying to fix the other active codes. That's a round about way of telling them you may not know what's exactly wrong with it, but you know what's a stupid answer to the problem. Also, any shop wants to look good and gain a customer, and they'll probably try to do it better so they can flex on the other dealership and gain your trust. I always get a massive kick out of making dealer techs look like fools when they send us a problem they can't figure out... Usually they can't figure it out because they just aren't looking.

I doubt there is a person here that would accept some random dude walking in off the street standing over them while they are trying to work and saying "well the guys on my forum say that you need to do this". I know I wouldn't put up with it for a second but for some reason car "enthusiasts" seem to think it is perfectly fine.

[RZNT4R]

Dude.

DUDE.

That happens and it's so damn infuriating.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I doubt there is a person here that would accept some random dude walking in off the street standing over them while they are trying to work and saying "well the guys on my forum say that you need to do this". I know I wouldn't put up with it for a second but for some reason car "enthusiasts" seem to think it is perfectly fine.

I always tell them exactly what they need to do to solve my problem.

Of course I only go to shops for alignments and tire mounting/balancing.. but still.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

I always tell them exactly what they need to do to solve my problem.

Of course I only go to shops for alignments and tire mounting/balancing.. but still.

I bet you tell them what you want not what to do. I can't imagine you would even take a car into a place where you felt you had to tell them how to do it.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I bet you tell them what you want not what to do. I can't imagine you would even take a car into a place where you felt you had to tell them how to do it.

Fair. Some shops I will tell them what aftermarket parts on are the car to save them some discovery time. Most of the shops the cars get aligned at don't need that help...

Chevy dealers for the Camaro though sadly have needed such guidance.. on a stock car. (admittedly the ZL1 1LE does have some parts none of the other Camaro's have..)

[Capt Spaulding]

Long time ago I had an 88 Acura Integra. I also had a Factory Service Manual. The car threw a CEL and the manual said it was the cam sensor. I took it to the local Acura dealer and said "it's throwing a CEL and my manual says it's the cam sensor." They gave me the hairy eyeball and I left. Went to pick up the car and they had replaced the distributor. I scratched my head and asked "Are you sure?"

Got this "well you're just some rube off the street - we know this car a lot better than you. Move Along."

OK. Went to the car started the engine and it threw a CEL. I checked the code. (The FSM was in spare tire well.) Yep - cam sensor.

Went back inside. Asked to see the service manager. Told him the code/manual/sensor story and asked why in the name of heaven they replaced the distributor? His answer, "that's what the tech thought it was." I asked why the tech thought that? He couldn't really say. I asked if the dealer had an FSM for that car? He replied they did not. So, I told him " I DO. IT"S IN THE TRUNK OF THE FUCKING CAR, AND THE FSM SAYS THAT CODE IS THE CAM SENSOR. I asked him just how in the fuck do you pretend to know so godamn much about them.

Asked that they replace the cam sensor, reinstall my old distributor, take the new one remove the distributor cap and shove the cap up the tech's ass and the body up the SM's ass. I'm sorry if someone finds that offensive, but as the saying goes "What do you call the guy that graduates last in his med school class? ... Doctor." Some dealer techs know their craft, some are pretenders, and some just have their heads so far up their asses they haven't seen the sun in a decade.

Sometimes, maybe - just maybe, the guy who owns the car may know something.

[RZNT4R]

The cmp is in the distributor on those old Hondas though...

[Capt Spaulding]

Originally Posted by RZNT4R

The cmp is in the distributor on those old Hondas though...

My (very faint) recollection is that it was on the other end of the cam from the dist on the early DOHC motors. Curious that it still threw the code after replacing the dist

Edit: and that reinstalling the original distributor and replacing the sensor fixed the problem. This was not directed at you personally. Admittedly, it's been 20 years, but my faith in dealer service departments hasn't been improved by my experiences since then.

[RZNT4R]

May have been a crank sensor issue, which is on the crank snout behind the damper.

According to wikipedia the first gen integra used the D15 and D16, amongst other, and like the 2nd gen which used the B series, the "cylinder position sensor", what we nowadays call the cam sensor, cam synch, phase sensor, etc, was inside the distributor.

But those old OBD systems, yeesh, not the smartest things I tell ya whut. jump pins in the socket to count the flashes, like a handful or two of codes for the whole system, cryptic info on what to do about it. that was a rough time. I'm glad I got to wrench on cars AFTER that era. I've only dealt with a small handfull of OBDI cars professionally and I'm glad they're all dead now.

[Capt Spaulding]

In a way I wish I'd kept the service manual. (I do still have the FSM for my '73 Norton 850 Interstate.) The Integra was totaled and I bought it for $100 because I had a second Integra and I planned to use the wrecked car for parts. I eventually sold it to a guy who wanted the engine to swap into a civic. The second car was totaled as well so I chased down the guy who bought the first one and gave him the fsm,

I wrenched professionally on motorcycles for a short time in the very early 70s and on cars and bikes as a hobby ever since. There are times I grow nostalgic for the days when things were simple enough that a multi-tester, timing light, dwell meter, a continuity tester (and in stratosphere were oscilloscopes) were the most complex diagnostic tools available.

Then I remember how "good" those cars were and that the very long end of automotive longevity was 90k to 100k miles and the good old days don't seem nearly as good. My old 70 Chevelle SS was a nice car for its time, but most of the time I'm glad those by-gone days have gone by.

But. in the end, what was true then, is I think, true now. Folks who like their work and decide to be good at what they do are generally just that. Pretty good at what they do. For those that dislike what they do, it is reflected in their work. Stay well

[RZNT4R]

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding

In a way I wish I'd kept the service manual. (I do still have the FSM for my '73 Norton 850 Interstate.) The Integra was totaled and I bought it for $100 because I had a second Integra and I planned to use the wrecked car for parts. I eventually sold it to a guy who wanted the engine to swap into a civic. The second car was totaled as well so I chased down the guy who bought the first one and gave him the fsm,

I wrenched professionally on motorcycles for a short time in the very early 70s and on cars and bikes as a hobby ever since. There are times I grow nostalgic for the days when things were simple enough that a multi-tester, timing light, dwell meter, a continuity tester (and in stratosphere were oscilloscopes) were the most complex diagnostic tools available.

Then I remember how "good" those cars were and that the very long end of automotive longevity was 90k to 100k miles and the good old days don't seem nearly as good. My old 70 Chevelle SS was a nice car for its time, but most of the time I'm glad those by-gone days have gone by.

But. in the end, what was true then, is I think, true now. Folks who like their work and decide to be good at what they do are generally just that. Pretty good at what they do. For those that dislike what they do, it is reflected in their work. Stay well

And those "good ol' cars", when they were still going, pissed oil like baskets and delighted the enthusiast with steering and suspension tolerances rivaled only by the horse drawn carriage.

[mo4sho]

Thank for the responses everyone, the other dealership today said it's the charcoal canister that needs to be replaced, ~$2500

[RZNT4R]

Still a ridiculous answer and a ridiculous price - Oh wait, I would assume this is covered under the extended warranty?

But still, that's blasting a mouse with a blunderbuss. Honestly I would assume the issue to be in the evap pump module, it's a little black box clipped to the vent filter BESIDES the charcoal canister... they're probably trying to nuke the problem from orbit with an all new EVAP system.

So kind of ridiculous.

[edit]

Further, I presume that price is the overall bill, I just remembered the canister pump module is above the rear subframe lol, so they're probably laying on a bit of time for a rear subframe R&R