ST Battery proposal for comment

[RT-BRZ]

I use a Braille AGM battery that's about 11lbs.

At my high point I weighed 265lbs. I'm thinking the battery may not be where I would get the most benefit.

[Kelse92]

I’m in the minority on this I guess….
2-3 cars I’ve heard pointed out have issues out of hundreds of cars out in the world using these batteries. Any number of other external factors could be at play as the root cause.
Either ban the technology all-together for everyone in every class/category, Or don’t. But going after one category and making a proposal that says basically “we’re banning this without directly banning this” it’s pretty pointless.
The technology of lithium batteries is improving on a daily basis. If people want to spend the extra $ and take the extra risk today, fine. If you don’t want to use it, also fine.
That’s it, it’s not really affecting anyone else. All the incidents I’ve heard about have happened in grid, not on course, they’re not really directly effecting any sort of event flow.

[RT-BRZ]

Originally Posted by Kelse92

I’m in the minority on this I guess….
2-3 cars I’ve heard pointed out have issues out of hundreds of cars out in the world using these batteries. Any number of other external factors could be at play as the root cause.
Either ban the technology all-together for everyone in every class/category, Or don’t. But going after one category and making a proposal that says basically “we’re banning this without directly banning this” it’s pretty pointless.
The technology of lithium batteries is improving on a daily basis. If people want to spend the extra $ and take the extra risk today, fine. If you don’t want to use it, also fine.
That’s it, it’s not really affecting anyone else. All the incidents I’ve heard about have happened in grid, not on course, they’re not really directly effecting any sort of event flow.

I had a Shorai Lithium Iron battery given to me when I bought my car used. I opted not to use it because there was something that bothered me about how it worked. The problem in my mind is that if a special charger is required to maintain the battery because of the overcharging risk then how does the battery get properly charged by the car's charging system without introducing the exact same risk?

As far as the risks at the events; I agree that some knowledge is needed about how to handle a fire if it crops up and that's not just with these batteries but with the electric vehicles as a whole. I know my region has never had to use a fire extinguisher on a fire at an event since I've been doing this and I would question how well the average person could handle a "normal" fire let alone one from these batteries so it's definitely something to think about.

I agree that this particular limitation is pretty narrow in scope and focus and seems like it's intended to go after something indirectly rather than just addressing the concern. I do remember the individual that brought this up very recently on Facebook who seemed to be just going after super-light batteries in general. It also seemed like he was bitching just to bitch since there is enough variation in driver weights, wheel weights, tire weights and other factors that make this particular weight losing technique to seem like a lot of BS. At what point are we going to start setting both weight minimums and requiring every car to go through the scales at events?

[Breadman]

Originally Posted by 14stu

I daily drove my 2014 STX BRZ with a 3lb Shorai LiPO battery for years.

Same but that doesnt mean that normal people do

[steverife]

I got an ATX20RS in the car and I spent money on the MELE box.

Personally, I think the 10 lb proposal is pretty bad.

I had a bit of trouble with my battery and I've had a LOT of trouble with super lightweight AGMs in my old STS car.

I'd be cool with street class battery rules for ST. Or leaving things as is, since I already have my setup. Setting some arbitrary minimum weight does nothing but makes people spend money.

And if it truly is a safety issue, why only ST? We cool with SP cars burning to the ground?

[Breezio]

Originally Posted by Autoxer62

Can you supply a link/vendor? Cheapest I can find one is at Summit for $288. It could be things have changed since your purchase.

Having said that, I'd still rather see a rule that just bans non-Lead batteries rather than trying to do it via an arbitrary weight.

I got it on Amazon. It's now $288 ish on there as well.

[DocWalt]

I wrote the letter, but not the rule proposal.

My intent was to get rid of lithium batteries as there have been too many fires with the SCCA ill equipped to handle them. The fact that they're so much lighter highly encourages their use.

AntiGravity is amusingly one of the brands that says they're safe because they're lithium-iron... meanwhile my anecdotal evidence shows they fail at the highest rate. We had a local STR ND light one on fire right before the NJ Pro.



I'm an EE by trade, none of these batteries can totally prevent themselves from lighting on fire. They can try to shut off when undercharged and/or overheated but they can't/won't react to large current or voltage spikes that can nearly instantly cause issues. The battery management systems in modern cars will treat every battery as if it's the OEM lead acid battery unless reprogrammed to handle a lithium battery. Porsche charges $3500 for their lithium battery and reprogramming. I think BMW offers similar, but the point is that as cars get more advanced and they're still using lead acid batteries, lithium batteries are not a suitable alternative. When a car comes with a lithium battery and is programmed to handle it, it's as safe as it can get. Look at Teslas, you don't see them spontaneously combusting very often.


STS cars get away with 1 pound batteries because their charging systems are dumb as hell and their electrical demands are tiny (albeit still with risks if the charging system fails in an unsafe way). First gen twins seem to be generally fine but other modern cars (even 2nd gen twins) are struggling with lithium batteries.



I don't like how the rule was written, but I get the intent. The STAC wanted to "soft ban" lithium batteries by not allowing super light batteries. Super light AGM batteries are generally safe (albeit pretty crappy to deal with though) so it's just kind of weird. The complications of writing a rule to handle this in the way that allows for safe use of lithium batteries while disallowing unsafe use (ie. in a car with battery management system not designed for it and/or battery in an overheated location like an STR ND)... Not fun.








So yeah, I get it doesn't make a lot of people thrilled but I'd also like to not have a car light on fire in grid next to me and have it be a huge panic. Feel free to write in with clarifications or changes or tell them you hate me and think I suck. I want the rule to be what's best for everyone, I've already written in to tell them I think it needs some changes

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by DocWalt

rands that says they're safe because they're lithium-iron... meanwhile my anecdotal evidence shows they fail at the highest rate.

That's because they are probably the most common as far as retrofit batteries. But when you say fail, how so? They are incredibly safe as far as the chemistries that are available. My GM bought a sample NCM battery for our equipment and was wondering why I wrote "bomb" on it in sharpie.

[DocWalt]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

That's because they are probably the most common as far as retrofit batteries. But when you say fail, how so? They are incredibly safe as far as the chemistries that are available. My GM bought a sample NCM battery for our equipment and was wondering why I wrote "bomb" on it in sharpie.

Because they're the cheapest... for a reason.


When I say fail, they light on fire.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by DocWalt

Because they're the cheapest... for a reason.


When I say fail, they light on fire.

They make cheap and expensive batteries of every type

Where these knock off's or being used outside their intended use IE watercraft or MC battery?

[steverife]

Originally Posted by DocWalt

I wrote the letter, but not the rule proposal.

My intent was to get rid of lithium batteries as there have been too many fires with the SCCA ill equipped to handle them. The fact that they're so much lighter highly encourages their use.

AntiGravity is amusingly one of the brands that says they're safe because they're lithium-iron... meanwhile my anecdotal evidence shows they fail at the highest rate. We had a local STR ND light one on fire right before the NJ Pro.



I'm an EE by trade, none of these batteries can totally prevent themselves from lighting on fire. They can try to shut off when undercharged and/or overheated but they can't/won't react to large current or voltage spikes that can nearly instantly cause issues. The battery management systems in modern cars will treat every battery as if it's the OEM lead acid battery unless reprogrammed to handle a lithium battery. Porsche charges $3500 for their lithium battery and reprogramming. I think BMW offers similar, but the point is that as cars get more advanced and they're still using lead acid batteries, lithium batteries are not a suitable alternative. When a car comes with a lithium battery and is programmed to handle it, it's as safe as it can get. Look at Teslas, you don't see them spontaneously combusting very often.


STS cars get away with 1 pound batteries because their charging systems are dumb as hell and their electrical demands are tiny (albeit still with risks if the charging system fails in an unsafe way). First gen twins seem to be generally fine but other modern cars (even 2nd gen twins) are struggling with lithium batteries.



I don't like how the rule was written, but I get the intent. The STAC wanted to "soft ban" lithium batteries by not allowing super light batteries. Super light AGM batteries are generally safe (albeit pretty crappy to deal with though) so it's just kind of weird. The complications of writing a rule to handle this in the way that allows for safe use of lithium batteries while disallowing unsafe use (ie. in a car with battery management system not designed for it and/or battery in an overheated location like an STR ND)... Not fun.








So yeah, I get it doesn't make a lot of people thrilled but I'd also like to not have a car light on fire in grid next to me and have it be a huge panic. Feel free to write in with clarifications or changes or tell them you hate me and think I suck. I want the rule to be what's best for everyone, I've already written in to tell them I think it needs some changes

I like the thought. Plus the training that I had to take to go into a lithium facility has me fuckin' terrified of lithium. I just hate the arbitrary weight limit, which I think penalizes current competitors and doesn't solve much of anything.

Do you think 10 lb lithium batteries are safer?

[Eric1855]

I wrote a letter in saying that if you want to ban Lithium then just write the rule to say that, and that it should apply to all classes if its safety related, not just ST.

As written now, as an arbitrary weight limit, it doesn't make much sense.

[DocWalt]

I didn't ask for the 10 lb weight limit, for the record.


There are really nice 10lb lithium.batteries with proper BMS but they're also absurdly expensive. If that's what it takes for a lithium battery to be safe, I'm all for it.

[14stu]

Originally Posted by RT-BRZ

I had a Shorai Lithium Iron battery given to me when I bought my car used. I opted not to use it because there was something that bothered me about how it worked. The problem in my mind is that if a special charger is required to maintain the battery because of the overcharging risk then how does the battery get properly charged by the car's charging system without introducing the exact same risk?

As far as the risks at the events; I agree that some knowledge is needed about how to handle a fire if it crops up and that's not just with these batteries but with the electric vehicles as a whole. I know my region has never had to use a fire extinguisher on a fire at an event since I've been doing this and I would question how well the average person could handle a "normal" fire let alone one from these batteries so it's definitely something to think about.

I agree that this particular limitation is pretty narrow in scope and focus and seems like it's intended to go after something indirectly rather than just addressing the concern. I do remember the individual that brought this up very recently on Facebook who seemed to be just going after super-light batteries in general. It also seemed like he was bitching just to bitch since there is enough variation in driver weights, wheel weights, tire weights and other factors that make this particular weight losing technique to seem like a lot of BS. At what point are we going to start setting both weight minimums and requiring every car to go through the scales at events?

The Shorai batteries specifically say that they can be used with normal battery chargers, the only stipulation is that you cannot use the high voltage desulfunation function some lead-acid chargers have. The Shorai specific chargers work a little better since they charge and balance individual cells.