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Old 03-14-2017, 02:24 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by mazeroni View Post
I just realized how off-topic this thread was before I stepped in... Can someone catch me up? Are we discussing the alleged MR2, people's overreaction and speculation over questionable and incomplete information, and Toyota's credibility when it comes to delivering products and business practices?

.... Cuz a simple "three brothers" comment - probably out of context - made things go 0-100 real quick. Ima step out...


I think some people are still hung up that the 86 didn't live up to the hype that was generated before the car's release, and they are hoping the MR2 will be everything that the 86 was not.


The problem is that there was too much hype following the car and people were expecting a 2+2 Cayman for the price of a Civic Si.
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Old 03-14-2017, 02:28 PM   #156
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What I am reading from what you wrote is that a lot of speculation on the part of internet commentators drove a false narrative. Unless Toyota or Subaru issued a press release or something similar, then I am not really onboard. Even if that is the case, I am only 5/10ths of the way there.

I agree that over-delivering is always better. There are plenty of examples in the game industry where people preorder a game and reviews are embargoed until the day of sale, and millions of people are left with an incomplete game. That is bad business.

But, in that case you paid for the thing and got something else.

Toyota didn't promise to bring a turbo GT86 for $23K to your driveway, then they showed up with a Scion FR-S and a COD charge of $2,950 (or whatever it cost new in 2013).

tl;dr The auto industry is big and complex. Each car has around 30,000 parts. Things happen and it is better not to let the rumor mill get out of control while also controlling expectations.



FREAKIN' THIS^^^^^^^
To the best of my knowledge not one single person was held at gunpoint and forced to buy the car as it is.


So it didn't exactly match what they HOPED to do, so what? They came bloody close and all the second guessing by the internet business and engineering experts that don't have a bloody clue how the industry works are just talking out their asses.


"Oh but it isn't what I wanted so it is no good and all those that are happy with it are fools and sheep. Boohoo, whine, sniffle".


Go buy something else or make it what you want there are loads of options.

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Old 03-14-2017, 02:59 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by funwheeldrive View Post
I think some people are still hung up that the 86 didn't live up to the hype that was generated before the car's release, and they are hoping the MR2 will be everything that the 86 was not.


The problem is that there was too much hype following the car and people were expecting a 2+2 Cayman for the price of a Civic Si.
[Saving this space for: "Wow, the new Supra turned out not to be the car I thought it should be."]
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Old 03-14-2017, 03:30 PM   #158
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Grrrr. I had a long winded response all typed up and a computer error ruined it. Here's an MT article with the 2500 lb manufacturer prediction, which was when the car was actually a working prototype, and way later than most of these statements were made.


http://www.motortrend.com/news/2013-...e-first-drive/


Cliffs are official statements said 2500 lbs and WRX motor. Price point matches vehicles that come with the kind of power that these would make with F.I. Price speculation came from the rumor mill and market comparisons. The rest came from what the actual experts decided to publish.


We can't expect online self proclaimed engineering and business "experts" to know what they are talking about. However, actual experts missing the weight mark by hundreds of pounds and taking way too long to squash the F.I. rumors that the themselves helped create, isn't something that should be blamed on ignorance. I dare say that removing the early manufacturer's statements/teasers and bringing the exact same car to market would have resulted in a lot fewer people bitching.
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Old 03-14-2017, 03:31 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by funwheeldrive View Post
If the 86 didn't exist I would probably be driving a 20 year old car right now.
I still hang on to my S14 240sx, but the 86 is a fine daily driven replacement.
I can't believe that car turned 21 last year or that it took 14 years to come up with a decent replacement.
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Old 03-14-2017, 03:32 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by mazeroni View Post
[Saving this space for: "Wow, the new Supra turned out not to be the car I thought it should be."]
Although I bet BMW fans will be pleasantly surprised at how sporty the Z5 will be.
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Old 03-14-2017, 03:47 PM   #161
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Grrrr. I had a long winded response all typed up and a computer error ruined it. Here's an MT article with the 2500 lb manufacturer prediction, which was when the car was actually a working prototype, and way later than most of these statements were made.


http://www.motortrend.com/news/2013-...e-first-drive/


Cliffs are official statements said 2500 lbs and WRX motor. Price point matches vehicles that come with the kind of power that these would make with F.I. Price speculation came from the rumor mill and market comparisons. The rest came from what the actual experts decided to publish.


We can't expect online self proclaimed engineering and business "experts" to know what they are talking about. However, actual experts missing the weight mark by hundreds of pounds and taking way too long to squash the F.I. rumors that the themselves helped create, isn't something that should be blamed on ignorance. I dare say that removing the early manufacturer's statements/teasers and bringing the exact same car to market would have resulted in a lot fewer people bitching.
I fail to see a single "official statement" about weight in there anyplace.


I really fail to see where you came up with the "WRX motor" thing.


"The Subaru 2.0-liter four is an all-new engine with a different block from that used in the 2012 Impreza, and features Toyota-sourced direct injection. It gets a unique FA designation within the Subaru engine family (the closely related 2012 Impreza engine is known as the FB, while the 2011 Impreza is the EJ), and though Subaru engineers were tight-lipped about the engine’s output, they didn’t disagree with our guess of about 200 hp and 170 lb-ft."
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Old 03-14-2017, 04:49 PM   #162
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I fail to see a single "official statement" about weight in there anyplace.


I really fail to see where you came up with the "WRX motor" thing.


"The Subaru 2.0-liter four is an all-new engine with a different block from that used in the 2012 Impreza, and features Toyota-sourced direct injection. It gets a unique FA designation within the Subaru engine family (the closely related 2012 Impreza engine is known as the FB, while the 2011 Impreza is the EJ), and though Subaru engineers were tight-lipped about the engine’s output, they didn’t disagree with our guess of about 200 hp and 170 lb-ft."
It does say,however


Quote:
Subaru says production cars will weigh a feathery 2500 pounds–means you can brake later for turns, carry lots of speed through them, and still nail apexes like a sharpshooter.
...I'm looking forward to them making a good car even better for gens2 .
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Old 03-14-2017, 04:55 PM   #163
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It does say,however




...I'm looking forward to them making a good car even better for gens2 .
Yes the Motortrend writer wrote that. They also wrote many many other things that were not accurate. They continue to write such things that people then take to be official statements.

A Target of 2,500 pounds does not mean "it will be" 2,500 pounds.
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Old 03-14-2017, 05:40 PM   #164
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It does say,however
lol and there are hundreds of articles with 'sources from Subaru say blah blah blah STI blah blah blah'

Like Tcoat said, either it's in the press release or sitting on a showroom floor with a for sale sign on it, until then publications are just fishing for ad revenue. Hell they probably made a whole 2-3 cents off it being linked here today, almost 6 years after it was written.

How's that for return on investment.

No point in being butthurt about it now, my car on the scales last week was under 2,705 lbs and I haven't spent a dime on weight reduction.



And good luck with the Gen2, I'm certainly not waiting around, every iteration Toyota's cars get heavier and more complicated, even the refresh added a few lbs and more gizmos that do nothing terribly useful. No thanks.
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Old 03-14-2017, 05:49 PM   #165
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No point in being butthurt about it now, my car on the scales last week was under 2,705 lbs and I haven't spent a dime on weight reduction.

Spare tire removal, back seat delete, and almost no gas in the tank?
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Old 03-14-2017, 06:34 PM   #166
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Spare tire removal, back seat delete, and almost no gas in the tank?
1/2 tank and no junk in the trunk is all it takes.

Didn't even bother to take the carpets out. Roughly speaking 5 gallons of gas is ~30 lbs, spare tire and jack is near enough to 20. Car fully laden is 2,75x in my experience. I suppose that is with a set of coilovers, might have saved a few lbs there now that I think about it, but I'd be surprised if it was more than a single digit.

For a '13 FR-S MT with no options of course. Add in heated seats, leather, touchscreen, climate control, etc. seem to add a few lbs here and there. Subaru publishes a few lbs heavier for a BRZ and the '17 86 seems to have picked up a few more (about 15 lbs now that I look at it).

It's nit-picking, they only picked up a few lbs, but they definitely did. Enough to change the numbers.
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Old 03-15-2017, 06:14 AM   #167
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Yes the Motortrend writer wrote that. They also wrote many many other things that were not accurate. They continue to write such things that people then take to be official statements.

A Target of 2,500 pounds does not mean "it will be" 2,500 pounds.


Except it doesn't say target anywhere. It says manufacturer estimate, which it turns out was grossly off. You guys aren't getting me on a technicality on this one. Since a Subaru/Toyota rep gave motortrend that estimate, it is not unreasonable to expect it to get published or for someone to believe it. It would be quite unreasonable to expect them not to publish it actually. You don't need an official statement to recognize that they were way off in their estimate so late into development.

As far as the engine goes, this was a later article where they had a running demo car. Years before, they were publishing "upcoming WRX motor" or similar. Again, from tidbits the manufacturer was feeding them. I said before I don't have time or care enough to hunt all of these old articles down so I found and posted one. Or maybe I didn't say that because it got lost in the post my computer ate.
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Old 03-15-2017, 07:00 AM   #168
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Except it doesn't say target anywhere. It says manufacturer estimate, which it turns out was grossly off. You guys aren't getting me on a technicality on this one. Since a Subaru/Toyota rep gave motortrend that estimate, it is not unreasonable to expect it to get published or for someone to believe it. It would be quite unreasonable to expect them not to publish it actually. You don't need an official statement to recognize that they were way off in their estimate so late into development.

As far as the engine goes, this was a later article where they had a running demo car. Years before, they were publishing "upcoming WRX motor" or similar. Again, from tidbits the manufacturer was feeding them. I said before I don't have time or care enough to hunt all of these old articles down so I found and posted one. Or maybe I didn't say that because it got lost in the post my computer ate.
And since when does estimate mean "this is what the production car will weigh"
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