Transmission upgrade options for stock power and track only use?

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

How would you propose I change my shifting behaviors to make this a reality, even in a NA car?

My fluid typically drains out grey, with even just 2 track hours on it.

I know you're being rhetorical Mike but just in case...

1: Shift slower and shift less. Just like racing a car with not enough brakes - you have to adapt and brake less. If these trannies break by shifting like track-day-heroes then maybe stop trying to be a hero.

2: I think you have something wrong if your tranny fluid is grey after 2 hours. Either internally or you're introducing way too much heat and cooking it. Even without my front pipe wrapped, my Pennzoil Synchromesh wouldn't blacken/grey until after 3-4 race weekends. Front pipe is wrapped so this season I'll run it for 3 weekends and drain and see how the wrap helps. But just like our differentials, driver side inner CV joints, and coil packs - our exhaust is cooking things.

[ML]

I have come to the conclusion that the best transmission upgrade for track use is to swap in a k24.

[GrandSport]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

I know you're being rhetorical Mike but just in case...

1: Shift slower and shift less. Just like racing a car with not enough brakes - you have to adapt and brake less. If these trannies break by shifting like track-day-heroes then maybe stop trying to be a hero.

2: I think you have something wrong if your tranny fluid is grey after 2 hours. Either internally or you're introducing way too much heat and cooking it. Even without my front pipe wrapped, my Pennzoil Synchromesh wouldn't blacken/grey until after 3-4 race weekends. Front pipe is wrapped so this season I'll run it for 3 weekends and drain and see how the wrap helps. But just like our differentials, driver side inner CV joints, and coil packs - our exhaust is cooking things.

Lol, I'm not going to shift less. I'm not absolutely jamming gears, but it's a damn race car. I'm going to shift. This is one of the reasons why I bought a BRZ, so I'm paying for BRZ parts if the break rather than Corvette or Viper parts
I've driven plenty of cars on the track before- both with more power and with high level instructors. I've never had a trans problem nor have I ever been told I shift too fast or too often for the car.

The trans will wear. It happens. It's not due to "shifting wrong." JFC.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by GrandSport

Lol, I'm not going to shift less. I'm not absolutely jamming gears, but it's a damn race car. I'm going to shift. This is one of the reasons why I bought a BRZ, so I'm paying for BRZ parts if the break rather than Corvette or Viper parts
I've driven plenty of cars on the track before- both with more power and with high level instructors. I've never had a trans problem nor have I ever been told I shift too fast or too often for the car.

The trans will wear. It happens. It's not due to "shifting wrong." JFC.

His response was to someone who specifically asked him to make recommendations based on a symptom. Your issue sounds like it is the known, but not common issue with thrust load taking off the circlip that holds on 4th gear, totally different. Reading comprehension, JFC.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by GrandSport

Lol, I'm not going to shift less. I'm not absolutely jamming gears, but it's a damn race car. I'm going to shift. This is one of the reasons why I bought a BRZ, so I'm paying for BRZ parts if the break rather than Corvette or Viper parts
I've driven plenty of cars on the track before- both with more power and with high level instructors. I've never had a trans problem nor have I ever been told I shift too fast or too often for the car.

The trans will wear. It happens. It's not due to "shifting wrong." JFC.

While the internet can be a snarky place and clearly some people have had some fun at your expense - you're not being attacked. I understand your defensive position.

The fact of the matter is, that your shifting may be perfectly adequate in your previous cars but if you're getting 40 hours of your tranny and I'm getting 140+ out of mine without the wear - then maybe the issue isn't the tranny. Perhaps your shifting is just fine, but something small needs to be modified to work around an inherent weakness.

However, my overall point did give you the benefit of the doubt as it assumes the driver is doing everything right (that's you btw) and the transmission is just a weak point on the car therefore the driver needs to adapt around the weak point, or simply accept the reality of tighter replacement intervals for said component. The 4th gear thing hasn't affected me yet and I'm not sure why and it may be because not how I upshift, but how I down shift; I never downshift quickly with very rare exception because grabbing the wrong gear in a downshift is undesirable and aggressively downshifting doesn't improve laptimes. Which leads to my next point: Shifting Less.

You can shift less on your down shifts. Many people downshift through every gear - these are not sequential boxes so there's rarely a need for this and it doesn't improve lap times. In braking zones where you drop more than 1 gear (5th to 3rd, 4th to 2nd); since you're under braking and have plenty of time to pick the gear, you can easily heel-toe(dbl clutch)-rev-match directly into that gear softly, you don't have to engage every gear. If you have 3 corners on a track that require you to drop more than 1 gear, then this is 3 fewer shifts per lap and it's not a detriment to lap time.

[RT-BRZ]

Just attempting to learn and understand.

How does shifting itself cause excessive wear? I can certainly see how shifting frequently and the related increase in RPMs for downshifts would increase stress. Does the increased stress come from increased heat or is it something else? Is the only way to combat the increased stress on the components is to replace them with higher duty components?

I'm with Grand Sport on this one though. Shifting style and driving style certainly do have an impact understandably but I'm struggling to believe that any of us have enough difference of style on the track to drive such significantly different duty cycles for our transmissions.

Could this be something as simple as a difference in gear oil for the transmission? I've seen it be a difference maker for other transmission types, why not this one too?

[CSG Mike]

So, I've tried both shifting more and less, and shifting fast and slow.

The wear and failure always seems to be case warpage and the shafts, rather than my synchros or gears.

Just, frustrating.

Can't complain too much since used gearboxes are a dime a dozen, at least for now.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by RT-BRZ

How does shifting itself cause excessive wear? I can certainly see how shifting frequently and the related increase in RPMs for downshifts would increase stress. Does the increased stress come from increased heat or is it something else? Is the only way to combat the increased stress on the components is to replace them with higher duty components?

Syncro wear. The harder you work the trans, the more load you are putting into them and the harder they have to work.

The issue with 4th is a design flaw.

[RT-BRZ]

[QUOTE=CSG Mike;3408804]So, I've tried both shifting more and less, and shifting fast and slow.

The wear and failure always seems to be case warpage and the shafts, rather than my synchros or gears.

Just, frustrating.

Can't complain too much since used gearboxes are a dime a dozen, at least for now.[/QUOTE
Maybe we should find someone like McCleod to make a bellhousing to allow us to use a T56 in our cars so that we can make it cost a million dollars or something.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by RT-BRZ

Just attempting to learn and understand.

How does shifting itself cause excessive wear? I can certainly see how shifting frequently and the related increase in RPMs for downshifts would increase stress. Does the increased stress come from increased heat or is it something else? Is the only way to combat the increased stress on the components is to replace them with higher duty components?

I'm with Grand Sport on this one though. Shifting style and driving style certainly do have an impact understandably but I'm struggling to believe that any of us have enough difference of style on the track to drive such significantly different duty cycles for our transmissions.

Could this be something as simple as a difference in gear oil for the transmission? I've seen it be a difference maker for other transmission types, why not this one too?

If GS encountered the circlip bug it’s related to thrust and could simply be from rushed downshifts thrusting the stack popping the circlip. If you drop the clutch it will thrust in one direction, when engine braking it will thrust the other direction. If you do really aggressive rushed downshifts it no doubt thrusts hard enough to pop the clip. A lot of cars tend to under engineer for negative loads. I used to grenade clutches on my Integra all the time on downshifts and it was due to the drive straps on the pressure plate not being designed to handle negative loads very well (straps were only tied in one direction). I had a local shop take the straps off three broken pressure plates and combine them onto one of them and never broke a clutch again. The average person rarely or never downshifts so they tend to cut corners.

I’ve watched rice’s entire race at the SCCA runoffs and one thing that caught my attention is he tends to get most of the braking out of the way and does one giant blip to downshift two to three gears all at once. Our gears are so close that it’s hard to change down through all of them when threshold braking without miss matching frequently.

If you know how to double clutch (which rice mentioned so he most likely does) and don’t under blip (for example you blip to 5K but the target gear needs 7k) or rush downshifts there is little wear on the transmission.

[Ultramaroon]

^^ this is exactly what I'm talking about. Thrust loads are not the end of the world but when exacerbated by the shock of loading through all the combined driveline slack, the hammering takes its toll. I've noticed, in my case, most of the slack is actually in the outer CV joints.


But we've made the point. OP has his mind set on buying stuff.

[Tanstin]

Can't say anything in regards to OP's problem, but just like rice_classic very respectfully noted, people tend to judge others behavior as due to their character/personality rather than outside circumstances. classic Fundamental Attribution Error.

Not saying, OP's transmission woes are directly his fault or not, but I'd be pretty pissed if I came to the forum with a tranny problem and my first response is "stop dumping your clutch lmao".

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[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Tanstin

Can't say anything in regards to OP's problem, but just like rice_classic very respectfully noted, people tend to judge others behavior as due to their character/personality rather than outside circumstances. classic Fundamental Attribution Error.

Not saying, OP's transmission woes are directly his fault or not, but I'd be pretty pissed if I came to the forum with a tranny problem and my first response is "stop dumping your clutch lmao".

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Please don't misquote me. I never wrote "lmao" There's a quote function. It's free to use that too.

[Tanstin]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Please don't misquote me. I never wrote "lmao" There's a quote function. It's free to use that too.

oof, you got me there. thanks for correcting me. I suppose i have to concede my argument now.

look. my point isnt to ruffle feathers. Im just saying you shouldnt immediately assume someone asking for help is in the wrong. the dude just want recommendations for improving his tranny.

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