KPower Industries K24 swap

[Petah78]

Originally Posted by ZDan

The transmission is, I think, going to be at a very different angle vs stock. The stock engine sits very high, and at a significant angle, sloping downward going aft. K24 sits a lot lower, presumably closer to parallel with the ground. That would mean the stock diff will be oriented at the wrong angle (more nose-up) relative to the trans in the K24 swap. Hopefully this has been addressed and the trans output and diff input are parallel or very close to it...

Definitely need more time for the swap to mature and work out these kinks. I think with more development though and once the kits matures, this will be a very very attractive proposition.

Though another thought came into my mind, if you are to swap anyways, why not start off with a lighter chassis. The Kswap has been done to NA/NB chassis for a few years already and they weight in @ about 2300lbs! Those are also awesome chassis from a driving perspective.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Petah78

Though another thought came into my mind, if you are to swap anyways, why not start off with a lighter chassis. The Kswap has been done to NA/NB chassis for a few years already and they weight in @ about 2300lbs! Those are also awesome chassis from a driving perspective.

I'm thinking of buying my old 240z back... The built 3.1 liter (250ish rwhp) has already gone to another car, so I'm thinking F2xC or K-swap. Should knock 100+ lb. right off the nose of the car, which was already 50/50, with potential for similar hp...

[Petah78]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I'm thinking of buying my old 240z back... The built 3.1 liter (250ish rwhp) has already gone to another car, so I'm thinking F2xC or K-swap. Should knock 100+ lb. right off the nose of the car, which was already 50/50, with potential for similar hp...

How much does an old 240Z chassis, with drivetrain, weight?

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Petah78

How much does an old 240Z chassis, with drivetrain, weight?

Stock weight for 1970-1972 ~2300 lb. I didn't do any real light-weighting to my '71, with bored/stroked L28 swap, 5-speed, R200 diff, roll bar mine weighed ~2300-2350 lb. with ~1/2-tank of fuel IIRC. With a full tank and me in the car weight distribution was slightly rearward of 50/50, ~49.8/50.2 again IIRC. With big cast-iron I-6...

[Petah78]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Stock weight for 1970-1972 ~2300 lb. I didn't do any real light-weighting to my '71, with bored/stroked L28 swap, 5-speed, R200 diff, roll bar mine weighed ~2300-2350 lb. with ~1/2-tank of fuel IIRC. With a full tank and me in the car weight distribution was slightly rearward of 50/50, ~49.8/50.2 again IIRC. With big cast-iron I-6...

That sounds like a serious riot with that weight, balance and power. If you K swapped that, you can easily add a small reliable turbo system making 300 whp and i bet the balance wouldn't change.

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I've never seen a 13-16 BRZ weigh in above 2800 lbs unless it was an automatic. Actually I've never seen a 2017+ that heavy either. Most bone stock FRS's and even BRZ's I've seen come in under 2750. If you believe their numbers, that's fine, I just think it's a little odd.

Mine is a 13' Manual BRZ. Weighs 2850 with a full tank of fuel on a freshly calibrated scale that weighs in 50lb increments.

My complaint about the FA is in regards to track use. I wish it was more reliable or could build more power NA. I would be happy with just the reliable part. I don't like wondering if this is going to be the day this motor kicks out it's rocker arms or is going to spin a rod bearing because it's oiling system can't even handle the lateral G's street tires can generate in certain situations.

It doesn't help that it is a nightmare to work on.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

I honestly don't mind my FA20, but I have been looking for a longer term project so this checked all the boxes. The FA20 can be pretty good in fact once you ignore the echo of forum members without first hand experience. lol

FWIW the F20C is less than 10mm shorter than the K24 and they both fit in the S2000 with its much lower hood just fine. Even with this swap they could have mounted it even lower but chose not too. A D4S 2.0L 2ZZ would have been great but oh well.

Fitting a motor in an engine bay and conforming to crash safety regulations are two different things. I'm sure Toyota could have gone to Honda for a K24 or K20, but if they did then I'm sure the hood would have needed to be modified, so that a pedestrian impacting the hood would not hit the motor if the hood crushed in, and the engine would be further forward, so the engine wouldn't hit the firewall in a front impact. If the S2000 was made today then its hood would need to change height.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Petah78

The FA20 is the one and only let down to an otherwise amazing chassis and i am not just comparing it to Honda's K/B/F series engine. I regularly drive my wife's IS350 and despite a lower redline, the engine feels much smoother when i hone it around town. The FA20 will rev out but it doesn't feel/sound happy while doing it. Still, i bought one because i just love the overall chassis dynamics. The k swap is a very interesting proposition, combining one of the best engines with one of the best chassis on the market.

I don't know why you are comparing the 86 to a luxury car with an under-stressed 3.5L V6. Drop a K20 in the car, and you will equally need to rev it out, and it will feel high strung and underwhelming in terms of power-to-weight. Obviously the K24 will feel better, but not a whole lot different that the FA24 will feel. The K24 will likely be easy to modify for more peak power, but you probably won't find huge gains without significant forced induction over an equally modified FA24.

I would consider the swap if my motor went, and if I had an itch for something different. Maybe someday.

[ZDan]

Sell '13, buy lightly-used '15+ (or '17+), track away and don't worry. As much...

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Mine is a 13' Manual BRZ. Weighs 2850 with a full tank of fuel on a freshly calibrated scale that weighs in 50lb increments.

My complaint about the FA is in regards to track use. I wish it was more reliable or could build more power NA. I would be happy with just the reliable part. I don't like wondering if this is going to be the day this motor kicks out it's rocker arms or is going to spin a rod bearing because it's oiling system can't even handle the lateral G's street tires can generate in certain situations.

It doesn't help that it is a nightmare to work on.

[PulsarBeeerz]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Fitting a motor in an engine bay and conforming to crash safety regulations are two different things. I'm sure Toyota could have gone to Honda for a K24 or K20, but if they did then I'm sure the hood would have needed to be modified, so that a pedestrian impacting the hood would not hit the motor if the hood crushed in, and the engine would be further forward, so the engine wouldn't hit the firewall in a front impact. If the S2000 was made today then its hood would need to change height.

Crash safety regulations? Have you seen the 370Z engine bay? The hood just barely clears the engine. You don't need 2-3" in between the two for pedestrian safety. You only need .8" as a minimum per regs from 2012 at least. There maybe new minimum bumper and leading edge of the hood regs that a S2000 wouldn't pass but the engine height to hood wouldn't be the issue. Its mounted lower than a current MX5..

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Mine is a 13' Manual BRZ. Weighs 2850 with a full tank of fuel on a freshly calibrated scale that weighs in 50lb increments.

My complaint about the FA is in regards to track use. I wish it was more reliable or could build more power NA. I would be happy with just the reliable part. I don't like wondering if this is going to be the day this motor kicks out it's rocker arms or is going to spin a rod bearing because it's oiling system can't even handle the lateral G's street tires can generate in certain situations.

It doesn't help that it is a nightmare to work on.

There really aren't many trying for NA builds. Have you seen many? I haven't seen port n polished heads with lightweight n stronger springs with oversized valves and larger cams. Few go beyond a header and E85. Sometimes someone will do the Crawford powerblocks and a CAI. Occasionally I see a larger throttle body or someone trying to remove reciprocating mass with lightweight flywheel, driveshaft, pulleys, etc. People aren't trying to bypass the throttle body coolant. People aren't trying to squeeze everything out of this platform. Most just move on to forced induction. I don't know why that is less the case for Hondas and K-motors.

Here is a good thread talking about dyno numbers from mostly bolt-ons like a CAI, header, aftermarket intake manifold, pump/E85, etc with a stock TSX K24 aka K24A2. Like I said, the FA24 will probably be pretty close with the same modifications. I couldn't tell you which motor will be more reliable on the track. @CSG Mike would have a better idea.

https://www.k20a.org/threads/stock-k...27-188.109698/

[blackhawkdown]

Originally Posted by Petah78

This is a stock TSX engine, right? How much HP will it yield with those mods? I believe this engine has true VTEC but I see people putting K20Z3 (8th gen si) heads on them. Why would they do that if the TSX engine already has true VTEC?

Im a rsx type s owner. The k20 (type s) head flows better than k24. Most k20 and k24 owners do a hybrid build. A k20 head with the k24 block for bigger displacement and torque with a 8k-9k rpm rev limit. Most k20/24 builds can push 350hp all motor reliably.


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[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

Crash safety regulations? Have you seen the 370Z engine bay? The hood just barely clears the engine. You don't need 2-3" in between the two for pedestrian safety. You only need .8" as a minimum per regs from 2012 at least. There maybe new minimum bumper and leading edge of the hood regs that a S2000 wouldn't pass but the engine height to hood wouldn't be the issue. Its mounted lower than a current MX5..

Again, let's assume the engine can't be sitting agains the firewall. Let's assume the K24 was matted to the transmission as it is in the 86, then the engine would sit forward pretty far, and the hood would likely have interference issues.

The K24 has a 87x99 bore and stroke, so relatively speaking, that is a long stroke. The 2AZ, aka the Scion TC's 2.4L, has a 86x96 bore and stroke, so slightly shorter by 3mm. The 2AZ motor might be higher and be less compact than the K24 or not; I don't know. Regardless, here is a 2AZ installed in a FRS against the stock transmission:

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Sell '13, buy lightly-used '15+ (or '17+), track away and don't worry. As much...

I also happen to have picked up an engine with a rod knock to rebuild(was a recall victim), wouldn't take much more to update the heads to newer spec.

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

There really aren't many trying for NA builds. Have you seen many? I haven't seen port n polished heads with lightweight n stronger springs with oversized valves and larger cams. Few go beyond a header and E85. Sometimes someone will do the Crawford powerblocks and a CAI. Occasionally I see a larger throttle body or someone trying to remove reciprocating mass with lightweight flywheel, driveshaft, pulleys, etc. People aren't trying to bypass the throttle body coolant. People aren't trying to squeeze everything out of this platform. Most just move on to forced induction. I don't know why that is less the case for Hondas and K-motors.

Here is a good thread talking about dyno numbers from mostly bolt-ons like a CAI, header, aftermarket intake manifold, pump/E85, etc with a stock TSX K24 aka K24A2. Like I said, the FA24 will probably be pretty close with the same modifications. I couldn't tell you which motor will be more reliable on the track. @CSG Mike would have a better idea.

https://www.k20a.org/threads/stock-k...27-188.109698/

You are right, there are not many NA builds. I had researched NA builds to death, there seems to be some pretty diminishing returns with the FA modding it NA so people seem to give up. 86IT, who used to be an active member here, was talking with Element Tuning about an NA build with their big valve head mods and porting and they flat told him it was not worth it. Not a whole lot on cams. There have been people running the Piper's, but no real dyno's have been posted and there has been a couple breakage instances with them. The HKS's are meant to be used with their stroker kit thou can be used without, but again no 3rd party data. There really isn't much of an NA build market for the FA engine.