All season vs Summer Tires

[thomasmryan]

a few peeps toss their junk in bad weather ie rain or wet roads. all season or summer, wet grip characteristics should play into your choice. (22% of all accidents are due to weather) silica based compounds are my preference.




edit....and gold connectors because it is gold

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by mrg666

GMax AS-05 was my previous tire. They are very good. I would have bought again but Goodyear Eagle F1 AS had a very good deal.

I picked the GMax AS-05 out for wife's Mazda3. Surprisingly good road feel for an all-season tire, good wet and dry grip, and not bad in the snow either. Previous generation were great as well. Would recommend...

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

Ew.

Not a thing wrong with those tires, but as long as we're on it...
Looking at more "upscale" UHP summer tires, the Firestone Indy500 is the most expensive UHP summer available from Tire Rack in 215/45-17, and it's generally highly regarded.
Test results:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=235
Whaddya know, the Falken Azenis FK510 you turned your nose up at outperforms it at a lower price.

And here are some more "upscale" UHP all-seasons tested on the same car (2017 430i) if you don't like the GMax AS-05 (which is a very good tire):
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=241

Feel free to peruse and compare actual measured wet and dry performance between the categories.
Interesting to note that while the all-season tires are only ~0.5 second behind the UHP summer Firestone Indy500 benchmark in dry laptimes, they're ~3 seconds faster in wet laptimes.

[why?]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I guess it depends on what you use your car for, and where you live but I see zero point in summer tires. As far as all seasons, I've been very happy with the Bridgestone Ecopia EP422 Plus Tires on my car, I'm now my second set. Got over 60,000 miles off the first set. They drive about like the original Primacies, but with enough extra grip you aren't squealing around every turn.

I've never had a tire dealer give me a more negative review of a tire than the one I received when I was thinking about buying a set of those tires. I was literally laughing the guy hated them so much.

Originally Posted by Tokay444

There is not one single "All season" tire on the market that will out perform even a mediocre season specific tire in it's specific discipline. Why compromise where the rubber meets the road?

Because the vast majority of the people are not able to use even an all season tire anywhere near it's full potential, never mind a summer tire. Plus for daily driving, all the grip all the time is boring as hell. It is fun to slide around and enjoy driving. And then most people don't want to deal with the hassle of having 2 or 3 sets of tires and either getting them changed out or buying wheels for them so they can put them on themselves. I have a stack of tires in my bedroom because that is the only place they can fit, but that's insane.

Let's be clear, the stock tires the car comes with are good enough for the majority of drivers to enjoy the car with. Most people are not able to find their limits before they hit the limits of their own driving ability.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by why?

I've never had a tire dealer give me a more negative review of a tire than the one I received when I was thinking about buying a set of those tires. I was literally laughing the guy hated them so much.

Don't know what to tell you, my experience has been the opposite.

[guitarman]

Originally Posted by why?

Let's be clear, the stock tires the car comes with are good enough for the majority of drivers to enjoy the car with. Most people are not able to find their limits before they hit the limits of their own driving ability.

I dunno....the limits of the stock tires were pretty easy to find for me. Maybe after about 10-20hrs of driving my FR-S I quickly came to the realization that "I love this car, but these tires suck!"....

And since I drive in a place where during the winter months certain roads are required to have the M+S designation, I got the AS/3+ and while a bit noisy they are much grippier (in a predictable way) and they are overall a decent tire. Would I take them to a track? No. But for my DD they are great...the stock tires were not in the same league as the AS3s.

[churchx]

BTW, today nice review of all season tires got released:

Though he obviously mentioned in it that even best handling feel all-season tire lagged feel wise behind summer tire. There is no way around due having those many sipes (for snow/ice traction) vs larger thread patches of summer tire that moves around less. Imho that's very big drawback if tire is considered for car such as ours, that frequently is bought for good handling & driving fun unlike generic family hauler. Grip is there, but feel .. not so much. Hence imho best bet for hours would still be getting proper summer or winter tire depending on weather, instead of getting compromised feel wise all-season, when not forced to by weather.

[RToyo86]

Prioritizing what you want a tire to focus on at a set budget is probably a good start point.


The main issue I see with the majority of all season for my preference is worse turn in response due to mushier sidewalls. A friend runs Pirelli p zero A/S and likes how they feel. Might be a viable performance A/S for somebody looking for stiffer sidewalls.

For somebody who will use the car to go to the shops and never push the car that isn't a problem.

I know the FK510s were on my radar when shopping as the performance per dollar is good. They were actually more expensive than RT615k when I looked. Reviewers that road tested them back to back with other UHP tires all said the same thing, they are softer feeling tires aimed more at sport luxury segment. That doesn't fit how I want my tire to feel but it doesn't mean it's bad or somebody else may not care about the slight difference in feel.

I would just stick with the primacys if I wanted a fun feeling not so grippy tire. They're dirt cheap "used" as everyone seems to have a near new set sitting somewhere in their house. in fact that's my plan, to keep the stock wheel/tire setup the same and play with different tires with my aftermarket set.
I have 3 sets if you include winter wheels/tires. Even the pirelli tires I use for winter handle excellently on dry pavement.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by churchx

Though he obviously mentioned in it that even best handling feel all-season tire lagged feel wise behind summer tire. There is no way around due having those many sipes (for snow/ice traction) vs larger thread patches of summer tire that moves around less.

In general, maybe, but there *are* specific UHP a/s tires that will provide better handling feel than *some* supposedly performance-oriented summer tires.

Handling feel and steering responsiveness are also a function of tire internal construction, not just tread block size and siping.

If handling feel and responsiveness is a big deal, you should *definitely* check out specific test results and ratings before *assuming* that a "summer" tire is going to always be better in this regard vs. a UHP all-season.

For sure if this is a big priority for someone, to the point that they wouldn't even consider any UHP all-season tire, at that point you may as well skip over the entire UHP summer category and about half of the Max Perf summer tires as well and go straight to "Extreme Performance Summer". Actually that's what I normally do but this year I went with "Max Perf" Conti ExtremeContact Sports for classification purposes for time trials. But then I bought Hoosier A7s to run 2 classes higher anyway...

[Dadhawk]

I think we have two different conversations going on here. @Mrt1990 in the OP specifically said the car is never tracked. So, basically he is looking for street only performance on the tires. This a world away from having different tires to handle specific track conditions are to run in specific classes.

It's all good info, but I'll reiterate that if you live in a relatively moderate climate, I believe you can find a set of all-seasons that actually are good for 12 months out of the year, and meet street performance criteria.

Living in Georgia as I do, or S. California as @Mrt1990 does, separate summer/winter tires don't make a lot of practical sense for a street car. Heck, I drove my FRS for 60,000 miles with the original Primacies through 3 winters and really only had an issue on 1 day of those three years. The day after Snowmeggedon, they were absolutely fine.

Of course, YMMV and probably does, or at least your opinion of it.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by RToyo86

Prioritizing what you want a tire to focus on at a set budget is probably a good start point.

+1!
And I would say do not *assume* that going with a specific category of tire is going to give you the desired handling and feel you want! More research than that is required...

The main issue I see with the majority of all season for my preference is worse turn in response due to mushier sidewalls. A friend runs Pirelli p zero A/S and likes how they feel. Might be a viable performance A/S for somebody looking for stiffer sidewalls.

There definitely are. Personally, if I weren't tracking the car, I would for sure pick one of the better-rated and test-proven all-seasons for my car. And I'm a stickler for handling feel.

I look at Tire Rack tests for objective data on tire performance, and also subjective feedback on *feel*. And while I wouldn't trust customer survey results for ultimate performance limits, IMO they do provide a good source of subjective impressions on things like cornering stability and steering response. You do also have to take into account that a "high" rating in one of the UHP categories isn't going to equate to the same rating in the Max or Extreme Perf categories as expectations are different. But still worth looking at this stuff if handling feel is a biggie. See below...

I know the FK510s were on my radar when shopping as the performance per dollar is good. They were actually more expensive than RT615k when I looked. Reviewers that road tested them back to back with other UHP tires all said the same thing, they are softer feeling tires aimed more at sport luxury segment.

This tire was only brought up to compare performance at a price point for a known-good UHP a/s (GMax AS-05). It looks like a really good choice *in the UHP summer segment*, outperforming the benchmark in the wet, but having maybe a bit less stiffness and feel. Indeed there are a slew of UHP A/S tires rated higher for "steering response".

I have 3 sets if you include winter wheels/tires. Even the pirelli tires I use for winter handle excellently on dry pavement.

I couldn't believe how well the Pirelli Sottozero III handle in the wet and dry and also the responsiveness/feel vs. previous winter tires I've used which pretty much sucked in those areas! drawback is they don't seem to have the same traction in snow...

[86TOYO2k17]

Originally Posted by soundman98

^i remember looking at that comparison. i chose the bfg comp2 a/s simply because the tread design looked racier of the two.

i'm a sophisticated type of guy.

my hard limit on tires is $150/ea. i see little reason to shell out more for something that i turn into smoke and enjoyment.

Bfg comp2 a/s probably best bang for buck A/S tire. And do look the most aesthetic.

But they are directional so had to switch when i went staggered. and do have a lower tread life vs others like MPS A/S. Still at the price point solid tire.

[RToyo86]

Originally Posted by ZDan

+1!
And I would say do not *assume* that going with a specific category of tire is going to give you the desired handling and feel you want! More research than that is required...


There definitely are. Personally, if I weren't tracking the car, I would for sure pick one of the better-rated and test-proven all-seasons for my car. And I'm a stickler for handling feel.

I look at Tire Rack tests for objective data on tire performance, and also subjective feedback on *feel*. And while I wouldn't trust customer survey results for ultimate performance limits, IMO they do provide a good source of subjective impressions on things like cornering stability and steering response. You do also have to take into account that a "high" rating in one of the UHP categories isn't going to equate to the same rating in the Max or Extreme Perf categories as expectations are different. But still worth looking at this stuff if handling feel is a biggie. See below...

This tire was only brought up to compare performance at a price point for a known-good UHP a/s (GMax AS-05). It looks like a really good choice *in the UHP summer segment*, outperforming the benchmark in the wet, but having maybe a bit less stiffness and feel. Indeed there are a slew of UHP A/S tires rated higher for "steering response".

I would honestly have to drive one of these cars with a set of pilot sport AS3 or p zero AS plus before I'd seriously consider an all season.

I'm a bit spoiled with my current set of PS4S which cost me a couple hundred bucks. I don't want to pay $1200 for another set, which means I'll be compromising in some way when I shop in the spring.

I couldn't believe how well the Pirelli Sottozero III handle in the wet and dry and also the responsiveness/feel vs. previous winter tires I've used which pretty much sucked in those areas! drawback is they don't seem to have the same traction in snow...

I'm using their Nordic class tire, the ice zero FR. They should be a bit better suited to snow/slush/ice, not sure how they would differ from the sottozero in the dry.

I drop down to a 205/55/16 for winter use, and they still amazed me at how composed they feel on pavement wet/dry. They had great snow traction above 70% tread wear. Once they got down to 55-70% range I noticed a drop in snow traction. Now they're around 40-50% range and I'm not liking the grip levels. I am about to order a fresh set to replace them, if that's any indication of how much I liked them.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by RToyo86

I would honestly have to drive one of these cars with a set of pilot sport AS3 or p zero AS plus before I'd seriously consider an all season.

You should also closely examine *any* tire including max performance summers. There are plenty of those that are (relatively) squishy-sidewalled. Try recommending the Hankook v12 evo2 (frequently lauded in these forums) on s2ki! Those who are fanatical about serious handling responsiveness write those "Max Perf" tires off as mushy-feeling garbage...

I'm a bit spoiled with my current set of PS4S which cost me a couple hundred bucks. I don't want to pay $1200 for another set, which means I'll be compromising in some way when I shop in the spring.

Yup, *every* tire is a collection of compromises...