MT Questions

[tekFRS234]

I'm approaching 2k in my 2015 FR-S and I'm a little surprised shifting isn't getting smoother...

Q1. I've been pushing the clutch completely in but at times there is a very brief grind as I'm shifting to other gears. By now, I'd think shifting would be very smooth, especially when I know I've got the clutch to the floor. Is this normal and at what mileage did shifting become smoother for you? I had two used Mazdas with MTs years ago and shifting was always smooth as butter. I never had to even think about how far down I had the clutch when shifting in those cars. This is my first NEW car w MT, so may just be typical of new.

Q2. Would TRD short throw shifter improve things? It seems like the clutch is the issue, if there is an issue at all. Again, the grind when sifting is very brief and random, less noticeable after 15mins or so of driving.

Q3. When you shift from 2nd up do you give gas as engaging or not give gas until after completely letting off the clutch in new gear? Does it even matter?

Like I said, I didn't worry about how I drove manual in the two used cars I had in the past because they always shifted very smoothly. Drove them for years and never had to replace clutch. I Guess I have higher expectations of this clutch/transmission because it is the same one they put in the Lexis IS.

Still loving the car and would not trade for anything else in the same price range.

Note: I tried search on this Forum but too much garbage came up. Don't have time to dig. Thanks in advance for your responses.

[LXXXV1]

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19218

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...light=2nd+gear

[projekkt]

Q1. My roommate drives a mazda 3 MT. It's smooth as butter. Its extremely forgiving by design to the point where she forgets to clutch sometime. Our cars are NOT designed like that. Getting an extremely smooth shift is way more difficult.

Q3. It really depends what you're doing. I just try to slot in at the right rpms for smooth shifts and then go from there.

Originally Posted by tekFRS234

I'm approaching 2k in my 2015 FR-S and I'm a little surprised shifting isn't getting smoother...

Q1. I've been pushing the clutch completely in but at times there is a very brief grind as I'm shifting to other gears. By now, I'd think shifting would be very smooth, especially when I know I've got the clutch to the floor. Is this normal and at what mileage did shifting become smoother for you? I had two used Mazdas with MTs years ago and shifting was always smooth as butter. I never had to even think about how far down I had the clutch when shifting in those cars. This is my first NEW car w MT, so may just be typical of new.

Q2. Would TRD short throw shifter improve things? It seems like the clutch is the issue, if there is an issue at all. Again, the grind when sifting is very brief and random, less noticeable after 15mins or so of driving.

Q3. When you shift from 2nd up do you give gas as engaging or not give gas until after completely letting off the clutch in new gear? Does it even matter?

Like I said, I didn't worry about how I drove manual in the two used cars I had in the past because they always shifted very smoothly. Drove them for years and never had to replace clutch. I Guess I have higher expectations of this clutch/transmission because it is the same one they put in the Lexis IS.

Still loving the car and would not trade for anything else in the same price range.

Note: I tried search on this Forum but too much garbage came up. Don't have time to dig. Thanks in advance for your responses.

[WNDSRFR]

Have you taken it to the dealer and had it checked?
My first transmission would grind in fifth gear every time. Brought it to the dealer and had the transmission replaced. I'm going on 40,000 miles on the new transmission and it's been smooth as butter since day one.
Your new car comes with a warranty. If it's not perfect it should be fixed at no charge.

[86Tony]

Mines at almost 5k miles and I still have a 2nd gear thunk it really bugs me as every manual car I've owned was smooth as butter. I might have to take it in when it gets warmer to see if I can get a new tranny.

[extrashaky]

There could be something wrong with it, but I'll throw this out there as food for thought: This car, transmission included, rewards you when it likes how you drive and punishes you when it doesn't.

What I mean by that in this context is that most cars with manual transmissions are fairly sloppy compared to this one. In my old S10, it was pretty difficult to mess up a shift. But at the same time, there was almost no feedback at all from the shifter. Some people might consider that "smooth," but to me it just felt loose.

This car is different. If you pay attention to what the car is telling you, you can feel the synchronizers working. It starts out very tight from the factory and loosens up over time, but it will still tell you when you're shifting out of the power band or out of the ideal tolerances of the synchros. You should still be in the fairly tight stage at your mileage.

I learned to drive in tiny British sports cars (MGs and Triumphs) that had gearboxes that felt very much like this one, but after many years in other vehicles, I had to get used to the feel of this transmission and had my share of embarrassing shifts. Having been around performance cars, however, I knew not to assume that the machine was the problem. At 32K miles now, it shifts beautifully. Part of that, however, is that I shift the way the car wants me to. We had our disagreements along the way, but now we're a team.

So if the mechanics say there's nothing wrong with it, or if they "fix" it only to have the new transmission behave the same way, try listening to what the car is telling you and shift the way it wants you to shift rather than the way you're used to doing it.

Just a suggestion.

[Koa]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

There could be something wrong with it, but I'll throw this out there as food for thought: This car, transmission included, rewards you when it likes how you drive and punishes you when it doesn't.

What I mean by that in this context is that most cars with manual transmissions are fairly sloppy compared to this one. In my old S10, it was pretty difficult to mess up a shift. But at the same time, there was almost no feedback at all from the shifter. Some people might consider that "smooth," but to me it just felt loose.

This car is different. If you pay attention to what the car is telling you, you can feel the synchronizers working. It starts out very tight from the factory and loosens up over time, but it will still tell you when you're shifting out of the power band or out of the ideal tolerances of the synchros. You should still be in the fairly tight stage at your mileage.

I learned to drive in tiny British sports cars (MGs and Triumphs) that had gearboxes that felt very much like this one, but after many years in other vehicles, I had to get used to the feel of this transmission and had my share of embarrassing shifts. Having been around performance cars, however, I knew not to assume that the machine was the problem. At 32K miles now, it shifts beautifully. Part of that, however, is that I shift the way the car wants me to. We had our disagreements along the way, but now we're a team.

So if the mechanics say there's nothing wrong with it, or if they "fix" it only to have the new transmission behave the same way, try listening to what the car is telling you and shift the way it wants you to shift rather than the way you're used to doing it.

Just a suggestion.

Preach shaky

To the OP and @86Tony, it may help to review the following:

2nd gear Actuation when Cold
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31929




Also, check the following DIYs that SIGNIFICANTLY help those used to "traditional" hydraulic clutches:

Easy Clutch Grab Adjustment
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8040

Clutch Helper Spring Removal in 15 Minutes
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84622


Good luck out there! Peep the helpful search site thread in my sig to find out an easier way to gain knowledge you seek

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Koa

Also, check the following DIYs that SIGNIFICANTLY help those used to "traditional" hydraulic clutches:

Easy Clutch Grab Adjustment
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8040

Clutch Helper Spring Removal in 15 Minutes
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84622

Personally, I think those mods are a mistake. If you give the car a chance to teach you how it likes to be handled, they're not necessary. I see these people on the board run right out and muck with the clutch without ever listening to what the car is telling them.

I would say to drive the car at least 15,000 miles before removing the return spring or adjusting the clutch. I considered doing it but waited, and now I'm glad I did.

[Koa]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

Personally, I think those mods are a mistake. If you give the car a chance to teach you how it likes to be handled, they're not necessary. I see these people on the board run right out and muck with the clutch without ever listening to what the car is telling them.

I would say to drive the car at least 15,000 miles before removing the return spring or adjusting the clutch. I considered doing it but waited, and now I'm glad I did.

The return spring is a no-brainer to anyone used to typical sport hydraulic clutches.. the clutch grab adjustment is for personal preference.. The car's clutch system as it stands does not have an affinity to "like" a certain preference in the way a suspension setup shares harmony with the chassis... therefore, it's all how one sets up the clutch system to work for them. For most people who have wanted or have adjusted the clutch grab, they find it too far up on the stroke and therefore not consistent with how they like to drive.

It likes the way I set it up, with heightened feedback and a clutch grab more towards the floor, in addition to how I drive it, that's for sure.. others will set theirs to how they like to drive, and therefore the car will "like" it as well

I gotta ask, with the reversibility of these free mods, have you tried adjusting the grab at least to see what it's like? I'm about 1/4 the time stock and 3/4 the time adjusted and I would never, ever go back to stock. This is after hoping in a friend's bone stock '15 FRS..

Then again, I have the 3/8" retrofit slave cylinder mod on too.. wouldn't trade that out either

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

There could be something wrong with it, but I'll throw this out there as food for thought: This car, transmission included, rewards you when it likes how you drive and punishes you when it doesn't.

What I mean by that in this context is that most cars with manual transmissions are fairly sloppy compared to this one. In my old S10, it was pretty difficult to mess up a shift. But at the same time, there was almost no feedback at all from the shifter. Some people might consider that "smooth," but to me it just felt loose.

This car is different. If you pay attention to what the car is telling you, you can feel the synchronizers working. It starts out very tight from the factory and loosens up over time, but it will still tell you when you're shifting out of the power band or out of the ideal tolerances of the synchros. You should still be in the fairly tight stage at your mileage.

I learned to drive in tiny British sports cars (MGs and Triumphs) that had gearboxes that felt very much like this one, but after many years in other vehicles, I had to get used to the feel of this transmission and had my share of embarrassing shifts. Having been around performance cars, however, I knew not to assume that the machine was the problem. At 32K miles now, it shifts beautifully. Part of that, however, is that I shift the way the car wants me to. We had our disagreements along the way, but now we're a team.

So if the mechanics say there's nothing wrong with it, or if they "fix" it only to have the new transmission behave the same way, try listening to what the car is telling you and shift the way it wants you to shift rather than the way you're used to doing it.

Just a suggestion.

This!!!!!^^^^
As I have said to several on here. Don't try to force these cars into a gear just help the shifter go where it already wants to go.
A lot of guys want to grab that knob and hammer through the gears Vin Diesel style when all that is really needed is a gentle two finger push or pull at the proper time.
My son in law has drove MT all his life but can't shift mine to save his life and 4th to 5th seems to be a battle every single time.It is all because he wants to grab the lever and manhandle it around like he does with the sloppy ass shifters in the Mazdas he is so fond of. He just stares in wonder when I go from 4th to 5th with just a slight push using just the heal of my hand.

[gramicci101]

If the engine and transmission are cold, I try not to go above 3K RPM and I double clutch into second. Since I started doing that I've not had a single problem getting into second on a cold transmission. Once the car is warmed up it's no longer an issue. Also, I've put Motul 300 in both the transmission and differential. That helped.


I have better luck getting perfect shifts at 7200 than I do at 3200. But that's because I'm not as smooth as I'd like to be, not because the transmission is difficult.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Koa

I gotta ask, with the reversibility of these free mods, have you tried adjusting the grab at least to see what it's like?

I haven't had any desire to do that. Free doesn't have anything to do with it.

When I first got the car, I came on here and saw all these people talking about all these great mods. I was really tempted to do a lot of them, not because I really needed them, but because it sounded like something interesting to do. But reason won out, and I waited months before finally making my first mod, which came directly out of a problem I was having and not off a bandwagon.

The car never asked me to adjust the clutch or remove the return spring, and I haven't asked the car to do anything that would need those mods.

I will say that my style is to use my entire left leg to engage the clutch pedal and move my foot to the dead pedal when not in use. The clutch adjustment seems to be important for people who keep their heel on the floor (and possibly ride the clutch). To me this goes back to the car rewarding good habits and punishing bad habits. I was taught that it was a bad habit to keep your clutch heel on the floor. The stock setup seems to punish that style.

[Koa]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

I haven't had any desire to do that. Free doesn't have anything to do with it.

When I first got the car, I came on here and saw all these people talking about all these great mods. I was really tempted to do a lot of them, not because I really needed them, but because it sounded like something interesting to do. But reason won out, and I waited months before finally making my first mod, which came directly out of a problem I was having and not off a bandwagon.

The car never asked me to adjust the clutch or remove the return spring, and I haven't asked the car to do anything that would need those mods.

I will say that my style is to use my entire left leg to engage the clutch pedal and move my foot to the dead pedal when not in use. The clutch adjustment seems to be important for people who keep their heel on the floor (and possibly ride the clutch). To me this goes back to the car rewarding good habits and punishing bad habits. I was taught that it was a bad habit to keep your clutch heel on the floor. The stock setup seems to punish that style.

It wasn't a bandwagon thing that got me to pursue these mods. I was consistently finding the clutch biting point to be too far forward for how I drive.. I looked for solutions and found out what the helper spring does, and how to adjust the biting zone on my clutch. I do the exact procedure as you do- use my leg for each shift and return to dead pedal. I don't ride the clutch.. I don't know of many serious enthusiasts that don't do the method we do, and this forum community is not hondatech in terms of enthusiasm and driver skill.


I clocked 90k on my exedy stage 1 clutch in my WRX that is set up the exact same way.. it still has life left, although looks a bit worn, as I tore my engine apart to fix a spun bearing (read: I'm putting in another engine, ha). Do you still see me as a person who is "riding the clutch" just because I want my biting zone closer to the floor?

Perhaps you're trying to justify why you haven't even tried the free, reversible mods but the majority that try these out report positive results... and of those people have been some serious contributors, enthusiasts, and people who track the vehicle. That's realized, substantial positive results for 5-10 minutes of your time. I don't see your argument as sound, you don't see mine as sound.. but you cannot deny the experiences of others as invalid just because you don't share their sentiment. I see your perspective and 100% can see how it works for you. If it does, great!

With the clutch return spring removed, it's a lot easier to feel out the dead and clutch biting zones. Therefore, harder to 'ride the clutch'. Just throwing that out there. With the stock setup, one not accustomed is equally liable to 'slip' the clutch too much by letting on the gas and expecting the clutch to be already biting. MANY have reported the stock clutch biting zone is absurdly high. Are you saying all these people are merely bandwagoning?


YMMV shaky, just trying to point out that just because it's set up from the factory that way doesn't mean that's the way one wants their setup to be.

[malave7567]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

The clutch adjustment seems to be important for people who keep their heel on the floor (and possibly ride the clutch). To me this goes back to the car rewarding good habits and punishing bad habits. I was taught that it was a bad habit to keep your clutch heel on the floor. The stock setup seems to punish that style.

Full disclosure, I adjusted my pedal height very slightly around 7500 miles, and removed my clutch spring at about 12,000 miles.

I kind of agree and disagree with you at the same time. I do agree with you that the car does reward good habits and punish bad ones, especially when shifting. I have no problem the shifting feel, but the clutch feel itself left something to be desired for me from the factory. This isn't my first time in a car that shifts like this, as my FC was really tight and shifted even shorter than my FR-S with the TRD short shifter installed.

I adjusted my pedal height slightly because I just couldn't live with the clutch in its stock position for engagement. It was just at a perfect awkward-feeling leg position in relation to my seating position. A very slight adjustment made it much more comfortable for me. I did not make the clutch pedal the same height as the brake, it is still a little above.

The clutch spring just bothered me at all times. Granted, my Camaro SS had one too, and sometimes people swap those out for stiffer springs to return the clutch quicker. However, I always felt that was masking another problem on those cars (that they don't come with a separate clutch reservoir from the factory). It just makes the clutch feel very vague to me. I could drive it as is. Just felt much better without it.

I feel 10x better driving my car after making these two minor changes, and I do not do things like ride the clutch. I think they are a personal preference thing.