Is weight no longer an issue in sports cars?

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by fatoni

by many accounts the atom isn't a very good drivers car. I'm not sure many companies not called Porsche do rear engine cars well.

Please elaborate. My unrealistic dreams hang in the balance.

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Please elaborate. My unrealistic dreams hang in the balance.

Putting the engine in the wrong place makes for a very ill handling automobile.
A deficiency Porsche has been dealing with since they refused to admit they made the wrong decision on where to put the engine, to the extent of literally slowing down lesser models, so that that their "King" can keep its crown.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Please elaborate. My unrealistic dreams hang in the balance.

I don't have any first hand experience and it probably should be in the context of very highly desired cars but it was described to me in my quest for a car of this nature that it is not very balanced. Understeers hard into corners and is rather unruly coming out. I was in the market for a special sort of car and ended up with an Elise over the atom and a seven I think the brz is an amazing normal car up there with the miata but the elise is the ultimate slow car fast. The atom seems like a compromised fast car/spaceship. Fwiw, most of this info came from a person who was at the time selling an atom and an Elise and he steered me towards the elise based on these facts.

[LotsaMiles]

Originally Posted by fatoni

Things change and the evaluation of a car should be done in the context of its generation. Weight is as important as ever but it's just a means to an end. Feel is usually what matters and weight helps but other things improve feel too.

Yep. I normally don't focus on a car's weight when I buy a new car, but I did on the FRS - and was shocked at how heavy it was.


My '72 Vega GT was heavy ab about 2,200 lbs.
My '70 Opel GT was less than 2,000 lbs.
My '77 Subaru DL was only 1,700 lbs.


Considering its size, the FR-S at almost 3,000 lbs seems like a pig to me, specs-wise. Fortunately, it still seems light, handling-wise. I honestly just assumed it was less than a ton.

[LotsaMiles]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

Putting the engine in the wrong place makes for a very ill handling automobile.
A deficiency Porsche has been dealing with since they refused to admit they made the wrong decision on where to put the engine, to the extent of literally slowing down lesser models, so that that their "King" can keep its crown.

This site needs a like button.

[Ultramaroon]

Makes sense. I've always known about the lengths to which Porsche have gone to get their machines to play nicely at speed. Realistically, especially given my height, FRS is as close to street-legal go kart that I will ever drive.

[rennlistuser3]

Originally Posted by Vracer111

The Ariel Atom is probably the only thing that has maintained its weight very well over the years. Would so love to have one because Honda I4 motors are my first love and a no-nonsense, raw, lightweight 100% focused drivers car is what I've always wanted. But I could barely afford the FR-S... so no Ariel Atoms are in my future. I guess eventually will have to go the MX-5 'Exocet' atom clone route. A miata with about 1,000 lbs shaved off it... sign me up!

The Ariel Atom is a bit on the extreme side if I'm being honest. By that stage I'd personally would rather just get a motorbike. The Ariel Atom sacrifices too much in car practicality for me to be worth it over a motorbike.

I just went ice racing on a frozen lake this past Sunday with my BRZ in weather hovering around -20C (-4F). I think I would've been dead inside an Ariel Atom. With a larger grin on my face no doubt but frozen dead nonetheless.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Solid post, with good points.

Which I'll counter with by pointing out that Mazda made an entirely new bespoke chassis for the ND. Meanwhile Subaru's BRZ platform is shared with Toyota and borrows design heavily from other Subaru products.

You're forgetting that Mazda had a deal in place to share the ND chassis with Fiat/Chrysler for their 124 Spider. Costs are probably spread similarly.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by rennlistuser3

No that's not what I really meant.

It's difficult to explain I know but it's sort of like a status symbol thing? If the car is viewed as being competitive and current and not outdated, sales continue to go. As opposed to not introducing these incremental upgrades and having reviewers bring down the car and than sales slump badly and then there is no second gen to upgrade to in the long run.

What I mean to say is: Mazda upgrading the 2019 ND with 27hp will insure there will be an MX-5 NE waiting for the guy who bought the 2016 ND to upgrade to.

Whereas the FT86 with no significant upgrades and sales threatened to slump to dangerous cut off levels will not have a gen2 to upgrade to.

I don't know if I'm getting my message across but this is the best I can do.

Says who? Did you ignore the steadily declining sales number for the upgraded models?
You have the Toyota "cut off numbers" handy? Can we see them please?
The fact that they went 8 years between model changes will now drop to 3 because they upped the HP a bit?

No you are not getting the message across because you are not paying attention to what is being said and running upon your own assumptions and biases.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

You're forgetting that Mazda had a deal in place to share the ND chassis with Fiat/Chrysler for their 124 Spider. Costs are probably spread similarly.

THIS ^ Thank you!

Why can people not see that the costs and limited sales to make a new sports car in today's market takes a joint effort to spread the cost? The costs are just to high and the profit to low (if any) for it to be worthwhile to build halo cars all on their own. This is the real world now and all the whining and complaining being done here is not going to change it!

[Ultramaroon]

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

Putting the engine in the wrong place makes for a very ill handling automobile.
A deficiency Porsche has been dealing with since they refused to admit they made the wrong decision on where to put the engine, to the extent of literally slowing down lesser models, so that that their "King" can keep its crown.

Porsche tried to go to a FR setup with a more luxurious GT platform like an Aston Martin with the V8 928. It didn’t take, and 911 purists lost their minds. Maybe if they had gone for a more track focused setup then their FR setup would have gained traction.

The MR setup in the Cayman is better, as it was for the Carrera GT and 918, but they those models aren’t what the 911 is, which is an everyday GT sports car that can fit the whole family. Even with Porsche being (through production numbers) more of a sedan and a SUV company now than a sports car company, their brand car is the practical family sports car—not an MR two seater. With that said, they could make the Cayman the more powerful model, but like the pricing of the Panamara indicates, the 911 would still be priced exactly as expensive as the Cayman would, even if the 911 had a smaller engine. This would catabolize their entry level vehicles.

Edit: There are some advantages to having a RR setup like more weight over the drive wheels. Obviously Porsche has made it work well.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by fatoni

I don't have any first hand experience and it probably should be in the context of very highly desired cars but it was described to me in my quest for a car of this nature that it is not very balanced. Understeers hard into corners and is rather unruly coming out. I was in the market for a special sort of car and ended up with an Elise over the atom and a seven I think the brz is an amazing normal car up there with the miata but the elise is the ultimate slow car fast. The atom seems like a compromised fast car/spaceship. Fwiw, most of this info came from a person who was at the time selling an atom and an Elise and he steered me towards the elise based on these facts.

I’m sure the understeer is there intentionally to limit driver error. With a short wheelbase and HP/kg comparable to many super/hypercars/superbikes, it could be a deathtrap with a neutral setup. It probably wouldn’t be hard to alter toe angles or other suspension components to get the feel someone desires. The Lotus is a more powerful, harder suspension’ed Miata. The Atom is like gutting a NA Miata then adding an LT4/LS9.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I’m sure the understeer is there intentionally to limit driver error. With a short wheelbase and HP/kg comparable to many super/hypercars/superbikes, it could be a deathtrap with a neutral setup. It probably wouldn’t be hard to alter toe angles or other suspension components to get the feel someone desires. The Lotus is a more powerful, harder suspension’ed Miata. The Atom is like gutting a NA Miata then adding an LT4/LS9.

RR must be driven very different from other cars too. With minimal weight over the front wheels it’s very easy to over work the front tires on entry because people are heavy on the brakes while trying to turn in. They can also push if you get back on the throttle too soon. I think part of the attraction to the 911, especially older ones is the unique driving characteristics. People that master them can be very fast and tend to be know to only race 911s (Patrick Long, Wolf Henzler, etc). I read a cool article in GRM once with driving tips from Patrick Long. I’ve never driven a 911 in real life but love them in simulators and it was interesting reading this article and being amazed with how his description of the car matched my experiences with them in sims (rFactor specifically).

My dream car would be a 964 from Singer. Unfortunately I don’t have 400-600k on hand. Hahaha