Video: Toyota GR86 SPIED for the First Time!

[p1l0t]

Originally Posted by LimitedSlip

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...aru-brz-spied/

Merge it!

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[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I don't necessarily agree that sports cars are a dying market, its a limited market, but then it always has been.

I'd argue it's a shrinking market. In the past you could choose a fast sports car or a slow family car. Now the family cars are fast (sometimes faster than sports cars...), so most people that just want to "feel sporty" or have a nice spec sheet on their car can get that in a more convenient package (sporty CUV anyone?). The true sports car buyers are still there, but now the "sports car" buyers have other options.

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

The only difference is volume and whether or not the manufacturer considers it worth their time.

Volume allows for splitting the cost of developing the car on more units. If it costs the same to develop a sports car and an econobox, the R&D costs per unit for the sports car would be higher (which would either mean higher price for the car or lowering production cost by compromising on things more).

[DarkPira7e]

I love that they have to throw this in there -

"The new 86 and Subaru BRZ are expected to be powered by a 260-hp turbocharged flat-four paired with a standard six-speed manual transmission."

As if it'll entice people to keep reading

[RToyo86]

At least they had the decency to say "could have a turbocharged engine" rather than "will have a turbocharged engine"

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I don't necessarily agree that sports cars are a dying market, its a limited market, but then it always has been.

Every make with a sports car model sells every one they build, which means they know exactly what the market for them is.

If you build a compelling sports car, the enthusiasts will buy it, just like if you build a compelling econobox, econoiasts (?) will buy it. The only difference is volume and whether or not the manufacturer considers it worth their time.

The econoiasts are still enthusiasts they just are enthusiastic about a different kind of vehicle. There are minivan, diesel truck, Prius, sedan, etc, etc, enthusiasts that are into their cars just as much as the sportscar crowd but for some reason people think only their favourites can be enthusiast cars.


I find that people look back over the last 40 years of sportscars and think they all existed at once. There were huge blocks of time in there where sportscars were very rare.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I find that people look back over the last 40 years of sportscars and think they all existed at once. There were huge blocks of time in there where sportscars were very rare.

Yea, I agree. There were times when the only "reasonably priced" sports car for sale was the Corvette and pretty much nothing below that price range.

Then, of course, you have to get into "what's a sports car" debate. The Mustang was just declared the "best selling sports car of the past 50 years", but I would never consider the Mustang a sports car, nor Camaro, and I've owned both.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

I'd argue it's a shrinking market. In the past you could choose a fast sports car or a slow family car. Now the family cars are fast (sometimes faster than sports cars...), so most people that just want to "feel sporty" or have a nice spec sheet on their car can get that in a more convenient package (sporty CUV anyone?). The true sports car buyers are still there, but now the "sports car" buyers have other options.



Volume allows for splitting the cost of developing the car on more units. If it costs the same to develop a sports car and an econobox, the R&D costs per unit for the sports car would be higher (which would either mean higher price for the car or lowering production cost by compromising on things more).

Economy of scale is real and measurable.
I can sell you two hundred rotors at $500 each or two million of the exact same thing for $5 each. The more of something that is made the cheaper it can be done for.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The econoiasts are still enthusiasts they just are enthusiastic about a different kind of vehicle. There are minivan, diesel truck, Prius, sedan, etc, etc, enthusiasts that are into their cars just as much as the sportscar crowd but for some reason people think only their favourites can be enthusiast cars..

Absolutely. I love all kinds of cars, and consider myself an enthusiast of not only sports cars, but pony cars, big-ass SUVs, and luxury sports sedans.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

I'd argue it's a shrinking market.

I'd say it's a "blending market". Sports xxx covers a lot more things than it used to.

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

Volume allows for splitting the cost of developing the car on more units.

No argument here, we were basically saying the same thing really.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Yea, I agree. There were times when the only "reasonably priced" sports car for sale was the Corvette and pretty much nothing below that price range.

Then, of course, you have to get into "what's a sports car" debate. The Mustang was just declared the "best selling sports car of the past 50 years", but I would never consider the Mustang a sports car, nor Camaro, and I've owned both.

Even if the Mustang was considered a sportscar there are thousands and thousands of bare bones base models built for every one in a performance class. Yes, those bare bones ones have gotten better in the last decade or so but the generations that proceeded them they were usually total crap that just looked like their sporty versions.

[JesseG]

To echo some points already made, the 86 and BRZ will never be big sellers. But that’s ok, if they generate excitement in the brands. Placing them in racing series and generally setting them up for “track” use creates buzz. Now that being said, I never feel like Toyota or Subaru capitalizes on that buzz nearly enough. I’ve followed this car from near inception, like so many other people on here. And I’ve realized basically NOBODY competes in this particular space. The Miata is usually considered the closest competitor, and aside from the RF it’s not even a good direct comparison. You can also throw the 370Z in there. With car comparisons price seems to be one of the biggest factors, which makes sense. Not many people will be cross shopping a BRZ with a Cayman, new anyway.
Toyota and Subaru need to do a better job of highlighting why the twins are a fun option in the $28k-$35k price range.
It’s clear that Toyota wants the new Supra to be their “best” performance/sports car. And Subaru has the new WRX and STI coming up. If we get a 2nd gen BRZ/86 with some improvements I consider that a big win.


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[Rampage]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

If they want to sell these things they have to do more.
Did everybody with a 13 to 16 run out and buy a 17? No, even though there were improvements.
Will the people that didn't by the 13 to 20s for whatever reason all of a sudden be swayed by 12 more HP and some changed lights and slightly different body lines? No, in fact those people will probably slam the car even more because it still isn't a $20,000 supercar. The video above is a great example of what we can expect to see.
Will there be a handful of people like you that would be happy with a minor change and buy them? Yes, but that is not enough market to carry on production.
Beyond a small group here on on social media there just will be no excitement attached to the release of this car. The general buying public will still remain ignorant that it even exists and no new market will open.

I agree the platform is good as is and put my money where my mouth is and bought a second new one but there just are not enough that will do that to keep the model viable. The initial build/sales rate of these was high and then slowly tapered off to next to nothing over the 8 years it has been around. Toyota knows there is a limited market for these and don't expect to sell a pile anyway so the just sort of gave up. One fact we do know from a reliable source is that not one member of the original design team worked on this "second gen". They threw the B Team at it and I am willing to bet that the final version reflects that.

When car companies attempt to take a "well loved" model and "do more" then they end up with a disaster like the Mitsubishi Eclipse transition. The 86/FR-S/BRZ has drawn citical acclaim and rave reviews for its styling, size and driving dynamics. I would much rather see an evolution of that than a revolution of design that would probably destroy all the things that made the previous model great. There is no changing the fact that sports cars are all "niche" models made for people who still enjoy driving. That market is continuing and will continue to shrink. The Eclipse is now a SUV. Now that is a revolution of the original design and purpose of the car.









For a car as great as the 86, evolution is enough.

[StE92ve]

I've been examining the spy shots and if you look closely at the rear trunk lid, it might be heavily camouflaged with a fake lid. There seems to be a bulge on the top and what appears to be a seam just below the tail.

[AnalogMan]

After all the ‘renderings’, ‘concepts’, and other silly cartoons of the supposed next-gen model, it’s nice to see a car actually driving around under its own power. It seems to make it much more likely that there really will be a next-gen car. Which, past comments by Toyota/Subaru notwithstanding, was far from certain in the new world order of a burgeoning global financial crisis in the face of an unrelenting pandemic.

The biggest question still remains – what’s under the hood? Consensus is that it’ll be a 2.4 engine. But will it be naturally aspirated (with around 217 hp), or turbocharged (with 260 hp)? The easy, cheap, safe, and conservative way to go would be naturally aspirated. The bold path that would warm the cockles of my heart and everyone else's (and there's nothing like hot cockles) would be to go turbo, and finally give the car what everyone has been pleading for since its launch – in the words of the inimitable Jeremy Clarkson, more powah!

But would a turbocharged BRZ/86 threaten the 4 cylinder Supra? Who would pay so much more for an automatic only BMW Z4 in drag if they could get comparable power (and maybe better performance?) with a holy grail manual transmission, for less money? I would be one of the first in line for a next-gen car IF it was turbocharged and had a manual transmission, and certainly hope this is what Toyota/Subaru will do. But Toyota is a highly financially driven company. I suspect they won’t do something if they think it may jeopardize Supra sales.

Now that the design is clarified, let the speculation and rumor mongering begin on turbo vs naturally aspirated.