'17 BRZ PP vs. '11 Cayman 2.9

[ZDan]

Always had major hankering for the Cayman, so I bought a 6-speed 2.9 987.2 Cayman a little over a year ago to compare vs. my BRZ, to be sure I bought the right car Idea being to drive both on the street and at the track over the course of the year and then keep one/sell one.

I had to fly from RI to AZ as 987s with my two must-have options, sport seats and limited slip, are pretty rare.

Anyway, after a year here are my thoughts:

Cayman pros vs. BRZ:
Much stiffer and more solid-feeling unibody.
Less road and wind noise, better for long road trips.
Better suspension: more low-speed rebound damping = good for handling feel under braking/cornering/accelerating, while less high-speed compression damping is less harsh over sharp impacts.
Sport seats hug me just right, all-leather > leather/alcantara, BRZ seat bottom feels hard and flat in comparison, Porsche sport seats more comfortable while at the same time holding me in at the track as well or slightly better.
More power and more torque, without torque dip.
Flat-6 engine sound (with Borla catback) sweeeter than flat-4
Much faster at most tracks! More so than power/weight would suggest, even. 2-3 seconds most tracks (but only 0.4 seconds at Thompson!).
Puts power down much better out of low-speed corners.
Being able to see tire pressures in real time is very very nice!

Cayman cons vs. BRZ:
Steering is slow but heavy. Too much caster! Feel is no better than BRZ's EPS in my opinion. And there's a surprising amount of kickback over bumps.
Standard steering wheel is also too big in diameter and rim a bit thin. All this combines to make the Cayman steering feel kinda bus-like. Slower, heavier, less responsive, but more intrusive over bumps. Interestingly, at the track it's less of an issue, but still I like the BRZ's steering feel, quickness, and steering wheel a lot better.
Shift feel is more vague and less precise. And the factory shift knob is so chintzy looking and feeling I just had to replace it. I'm fine with the factory BRZ shift knob...
Sport Chrono stopwatch/laptimer feature is hard to use to the point of being utterly useless. BRZ stopwatch/laptimer is super intuitive and easy to use.
Window switches are awkward, and feel is not good. BRZ switches are easy/intuitive and the feel is a lot better.
Ditto for climate temperature and fan speed rocker switches. BRZ rotary knobs are better in terms of look, ergonomics, and feel.
The Cayman feels heavy relative to the BRZ, a bit more so than ~3050 lb vs. ~2800 lb. would suggest. Cayman feels heavier than its weight, while the BRZ feels lighter.
Brake feel is not that great at the track. I bled them repeatedly but the Brembos on the Cayman always felt a little soft compared to those on the BRZ PP.
Fuel mileage is not good, 5 or more mpg less than BRZ and much worse than expected given the tall gearing. Speaking of which...
Cayman is geared kinda tall. This is a minor point for me, really. If it paid off in decent mpg, fine, but it doesn't.

In the end, I found the BRZ to be the more immediately fun and engaging car to drive every day, while being just as much fun to drive at the track (albeit slower). The Cayman is also a lot of fun at the track, very engaging and honestly easier to throw around than I expected. But in the real world at less than, say, 7/10ths it feels kind of aloof and again the steering is slow and heavy and less go-kart-like.

So I kept the BRZ

[ZDan]

cayman in the rain at Mont Tremblant, brz at Palmer (MA)

[Yoshoobaroo]

Damn. I’ve been contemplating this upgrade (sidegrade?) for a few months now, I just haven’t found one to drive and evaluate against my BRZ.

987.2 2.9 with lsd, you nailed the spec. That’s the best shot the cayman has. Great to know our twins hold their own!
I always suspected the Porsche would be faster, but also more serious.

Great comparison, very helpful for those of us exploring other options!

[BlueWhelan]

Great comparison/experiment! Thanks for sharing!

My old roommate has a 987.2 boxster and I feel my BRZ is more playful and more enjoyable. I prefer it. However, the sound it makes....ooooooo I want.

That said, I also drove a 981 Cayman on a twisty road, and at the time I swore to myself I would have one at some point. It was (5?) years ago now, so I don't really remember any details about how it felt, but I do remember coming away from the experience with "the fiz" and an insatiable desire to own one.

Maybe you should re-do the experiment with a 981 and report back.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by ZDan

In the end, I found the BRZ to be the more immediately fun and engaging car to drive every day, while being just as much fun to drive at the track (albeit slower). The Cayman is also a lot of fun at the track, very engaging and honestly easier to throw around than I expected. But in the real world at less than, say, 7/10ths it feels kind of aloof and again the steering is slow and heavy and less go-kart-like.

So I kept the BRZ

I remember your old review. Nice to keep the BRZ.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by BlueWhelan

Maybe you should re-do the experiment with a 981 and report back.

Yeah, about the 981...
I was annoyed with how much the 981 added so much visual bulk over the 987. And with the 1" bigger diameter wheels and tires (same widths), apparently to compensate for the added bulk. The 987 looks sooo much more sculpted and svelte and *smaller*. Which I love. Also, 981 is more $$$ so wasn't on my radar anyway.

But as it turns out, I drove a student's modded 981 Cayman S w/PDK at Watkins Glen and at New Hampshire Motor Speedway last year, and DAMN that car is sweet to drive, and FAST.

Side note: I *never* drive my student's cars, I prefer to take them out in my car during the instructor run groups to ensure they get maximum track time behind the wheel in the student run group. But he insisted despite my protests...

His mods were: headers, GT3 plenum and throttle body, Ohlins coilovers, GT3 control arms for camber, maybe a few other things. Very much still a STREET car, but these mods must have been *extremely* effective at the track!

Back to back vs. my 987.2 base, this car was SICK fast! Like 150mph at WGI vs. 130mph in my 2.9. Jeezis!
The PDK worked amazingly well. You can shift *anywhere*. Midcorner upshifts going up the esses were nothing at all. In my car I'd shortshift before entering to avoid upsetting the car. No heel/toe downshifting allows more consistent threshold braking. Upshifts are super-quick, manual upshifting at the track feels so SLOOOOWWW now...
The 981's electric steering is IMO quite a bit BETTER than the 987's hydraulic steering. It's a little quicker ratio, and honestly I liked the feel better! Partly may be down to the optional smaller-diameter steering wheel.
The 981 *looks* bigger and heavier, but if anything it feels smaller and lighter at the track. Go figure...

The only weird part was some "hunting around" at the limit under braking. I don't think I had the PSM (Porsche Stability Management?) all the way off and it was doing some brake distribution stuff I didn't like. It also limited braking force going into turn 3 at NHMS once and I had to take the escape route wormhole to the exit of 10...
I *think* that can be turned all the way off, or turned down more than we had it?

Anyway, in ~3 laps I did a 2:09.x at the Glen (vs. 2:14s in my 987), and a 1:13.x at NHMS chicane/chicane (vs. 1:15s in 987).
I would have won his time trial in the T70 class (COMSCC) by more than 2 seconds vs. very well-modded and *very* well-driven E36 M3 that won that competitive class last year.


Long/short: 981 Cayman S PDK is fricking sweet. I talked it up so much a friend and fellow COMSCC time trialist wound up selling his M3 and getting one!

I'd like to think a 987 Cayman S PDK would be a similarly good experience, but I'd worry a little more about older-gen PDK. If/when go Porsche again, it'll be a 981 I think...

[ZDan]

Relevant info:
Early on I had to replace the manual transmission in my Cayman, at GREAT expense
Apparently the manuals are NOT bullet-proof. And I bought a manual specifically because of fear of PDK reliability. Still might have been the right choice as PDK replacement is vastly MORE expensive.

Anyway P-cars are IMO *not* better engineered or better-built vs. Japanese, I'd argue the opposite is true.

But in any case, that didn't factor into me keeping the BRZ over the Cayman. I took my lump and in fact made the car 100% more enjoyable to drive with updated factory cable routing and brand new GT-3 shift console mechanism, along with a decent aftermarket shift knob. Shift action was still not as good as the BRZ but it went from being utterly horrible to pretty damn OK, "good" even.

Also I should mention the minor, very similar mods to both cars, basically giving both of them some ~25%-40% stiffer springs and -3 front camber:
Swift BRZ Sport lowering springs and Raceseng cascam plates on the BRZ, 225 or 245 RE71R tires.
Factory Porsche PASM springs and GT-3 front control arms on the Cayman, 225/255 or 225/245 Yok A052 tires

[WolfpackS2k]

Always appreciate the insights and reviews.

Regarding the transmission, I wonder if its different than the one in my 987.1S? Because I've heard from reputable parties that the manual transmission in the 987 is overbuilt and very strong.

[ZDan]

I think these transmissions are durable enough if shifts are precise. HOwever the piss-poor cable routing and erosion of shift console plastic bushings, combined with possibly poor ham-fisted 1-2 shifts by previous owner(s) I think contributed to damage to 2nd gear synchros. No rebuild parts available from Porsche of course I did have the option to have a knowledgable and experienced Porsche/Audi/VW transmission guy rebuild the trans, but ultimately decided to get a factory reman from Porsche. In the interests of 100% ensuring no latent issues remained and also mindful of vehicle value and making it a selling point as opposed to a "questionable half-assed repair" in the minds of potential buyers...

If yours isn't exhibiting symptoms you're probably fine. Mine occasionally would pop out of 2nd *only* after a 3-2 downshift. I thought it was me getting used to the cable shifter, but alas, no...
If shifting is kinda sloppy, I highly recommend going to the updated cables and routing, and possibly getting a new shift console. I went with the factory GT-3 one which has metal bushings instead of plastic.
The improvement in shifting precision and feel was DRAMATIC! Relative to other 987 manual cars I had tested as well as in my own car.

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Always appreciate the insights and reviews.

Regarding the transmission, I wonder if its different than the one in my 987.1S? Because I've heard from reputable parties that the manual transmission in the 987 is overbuilt and very strong.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by ZDan

The Cayman feels heavy relative to the BRZ, a bit more so than ~3050 lb vs. ~2800 lb. would suggest. Cayman feels heavier than its weight, while the BRZ feels lighter.

This is the part that surprised me most when comparing my 987.2 S vs my FRS. On paper the weight difference is only a few hundred pounds, but it felt more than that. I think the slower steering rack and low speed damping had a lot to do it, but the FR-S (even stock) has this playfulness about it. Anyway nice write-up. Miss mine from time to time...

[nikitopo]

Don't forget guys that Porsche is focused somewhat more on straight-line stability at high speeds. Hence the slower steering feel and caster settings. What strikes more is not so much that BRZ compares relatively well with a 987, but the evolvement of recent 981 and 982 types. In such comparison BRZ is left much behind (base 982 compares similar to a 981S minus the sound) and shows its age.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Don't forget guys that Porsche is focused somewhat more on straight-line stability at high speeds. Hence the slower steering feel and caster settings.

I usually mention that Porsches are designed with continuous operation at 120mph+ on the autobahn. For sure the BRZ feels more twitchy on the highway at 80mph and you have to stay on top of it a bit more. For me I prefer to keep the quick steering though!
Caster, for me I've never liked a lot, always end up liking minimizing caster vs. maximizing. To me it doesn't make the car any more stable or communicative, my impression is I get more real feedback *feel* with less.

What strikes more is not so much that BRZ compares relatively well with a 987, but the evolvement of recent 981 and 982 types. In such comparison BRZ is left much behind (base 982 compares similar to a 981S minus the sound) and shows its age.

I dunno, even vs. the well setup 981 I drove, I'd still prefer it if Porsche would build a mid-engine sports car more like the FT86 and less like the 911!

I don't think "age" has anything to do with it really. Lighter-weight is more fun

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I dunno, even vs. the well setup 981 I drove, I'd still prefer it if Porsche would build a mid-engine sports car more like the FT86 and less like the 911!

So original Boxster then? But, like, better?

[TommyW]

A lot will come down to cost between the 86 and Cayman. Consumables, repair and maintenance. I love Caymans but I like the cost factor of the 86. The lightness and cost are IMO the selling points.