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Old 09-13-2021, 08:47 PM   #939
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They announced at work today they'll be providing the Pfizer vaccine (1/2/booster) for anyone that wants it as part of our annual flu vaccine clinics. I'll probably get the two on different days just because I'd want to know which one I'm reacting to (I have some minor reaction to the flu shot almost every year). They won't start giving Pfizer until the booster is cleared though.
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Old 09-13-2021, 08:49 PM   #940
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Do you have an alternative to the vaccine that is cheaper and faster at eliminating the pandemic?
Clearly everybody should go on a no-food diet and go work the fields for 52 weeks. They'll lose a pound or two a week and become non-obese!

That's gotta be the quickest timeline to good health!
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Old 09-13-2021, 08:54 PM   #941
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Give everyone a choice - get vaccinated or go into isolation/exile until there have been no cases nationally for one year.
I think the best way to make it mandatory is at the business level, and that seems to be the game plan. Businesses that don't comply might be subject to fines/taxes or losing federal funding. For states that don't comply, they could lose federal funding too.

For hospitals, this means losing Medicare reimbursement, which would be crippling, so all hospitals will comply. For hospitals concerned of losing healthcare workers to the vaccine mandate, they are already losing healthcare workers from COVID burnout, so they want the vaccine mandate, and given the choice between losing workers or losing federal funding and reimbursement, they will chose the latter all day, any day.

For many businesses too, a universal mandate is what they are looking for because it means they aren't enforcing a policy that would make their workers to jump ship to another company that wasn't forcing vaccines. This way, it is ubiquitous across the entire country.

There will be hold outs who quit and live in their bunker for a few days, but exile is a tough life and people need to pay the bills. Once the vaccination rate gets to high levels, boosters get going, deaths plummet, and we can fully open without another wave, that is when we can sound the all clear for the hold outs, but I'm still not opposed to maintaining the mandate indefinitely. I'm surprised the flu shot is optional at my hospital. The flu is much less transmissible, and a basic mask works amazing against it like we have seen this last season, but people are poor about wearing their masks, so I think the flu shot should be mandated at all healthcare facilities, and I believe we should be doing COVID/flu/RSV screens on every admit going forward regardless of complaint like we are doing now for COVID patients and like we did this last flu/RSV season.

I think the only exception should be an exemption coming from a doctor with a valid reason and not just because the doctor said, and that reason is because of a medical condition, and again, it isn't just because the doctor's personal opinion is that vaccines are harmful or something not specific to their patient, that is ambiguous. There would be no religious exemptions except in cases where communities have the ability to completely isolate like the Amish. I really don't understand why religious exemptions exist. If this was the movie Outbreak then there would be no medical or religious exemptions. People would need to quarantine indefinitely or get a vaccine or something.
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Old 09-13-2021, 09:03 PM   #942
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Originally Posted by spike021 View Post
Clearly everybody should go on a no-food diet and go work the fields for 52 weeks. They'll lose a pound or two a week and become non-obese!

That's gotta be the quickest timeline to good health!
Starve a cold...
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Old 09-13-2021, 09:07 PM   #943
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I think the best way to make it mandatory is at the business level, and that seems to be the game plan. Businesses that don't comply might be subject to fines/taxes or losing federal funding. For states that don't comply, they could lose federal funding too.
I think its perfectly acceptable to have the "vaccine or tested weekly option". I also think it is reasonable to have the employee pay for their own tests.
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Old 09-13-2021, 09:14 PM   #944
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Originally Posted by spike021 View Post
Clearly everybody should go on a no-food diet and go work the fields for 52 weeks. They'll lose a pound or two a week and become non-obese!

That's gotta be the quickest timeline to good health!
Haha, and synthesize sooo much Vitamin D too! Even that wouldn't cut it.

Many obese people have hypertension, diabetes, vascular disease and fatty livers that borderline on cirrhosis, so just cutting out the fat can't remove a lifetime of being obese. They might see their blood pressure drop to lower or normal levels, but if they have enough atherosclerosis or heart disease then perhaps not. They might see their insulin sensitivity increase, but if their beta cells in their pancreas were shot from years of being diabetic then they may be insulin dependent for life, so no amount of weight loss will change that fact. I could go on.

Clearly, there are no other viable solutions that are as inexpensive and effective and immediate. He knows that. The alternatives sacrifice lives, but they also will likely be more expensive, inherently less effective and cause the virus to continue for much longer as new variants emerge from the rise in cases.
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Old 09-13-2021, 09:31 PM   #945
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I think its perfectly acceptable to have the "vaccine or tested weekly option". I also think it is reasonable to have the employee pay for their own tests.
I think it would be reasonable to have the employee pay for their own test twice a week in lieu of a vaccine, but the other problem is having people quarantine. They may not be able to return to work, but there is little stopping them from defying their quarantine orders. We call people up all the time to tell them their test came back positive, and we say they need to quarantine, but more than you can image say, 'yeah, whatever'. I've read about arrests for people who refuse to quarantine, but I think the figure is far higher, especially among extended family and friends. I also think there is a far greater burden on employers and the healthcare system and insurers/government to have people test twice a week than to get a vaccine, so there would need to be a significant share of the cost going to the employee that goes beyond the cost of the tests.
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Old 09-13-2021, 09:38 PM   #946
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Last year my friend was told to quarantine for 15 days. Another friend got it recently and was told 10 days. Do I hear a week?
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Old 09-13-2021, 10:05 PM   #947
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wow, 5 pages?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17 View Post
Not once did i mention or associate cleanliness to either group.

Kind of messed up you would naturally think that all or most obese people are also unclean and unhygienic.
if you don't think i'm messed up in the head by now, you really ought to.

my point was expected 'worst-case' vs. 'best-case'. not any correlation between weight and hygiene.



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What do you think is more challenging.

Not doing something you want to do?
Or
Doing something you don’t want to do?
neither is even easier.


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Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
Obesity is more often defined by BMI than body fat percentage. BMI is not a percentage score; it is a ratio of height to weight. Most obese people have over 50lbs to lose, but at a pound a week, that is almost a year of perfect weight loss.

BMI has always been a little ironic to me. in high school, i was built. my brother and i averaged about 3k miles on our mountain bikes per year, were very involved in sports and outdoor activities. my brother actually cracked his own pelvis in a sprint race in gym from building up more muscle mass in his legs than his bones could support.

but we were both 'obese' per the numbers and heights in the chart. my brother has always been so skinny, he literally disappears when he turns sideways...

now, i could afford to lose some weight. i don't deny that. but my overall weight is only about 30 pounds more than what i was in high school. difference is that more of it is fat than muscle now.

point is, even if i started exercising, i would start building muscle again, and would really end up nearly exactly where i was. there's almost no way i could realistically lose the 60 pounds the BMI says i 'need' to.

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if there was a mandate, fines, higher costs, denied service to treatment for illnesses such as covid,

you know all the things that people have suggested for getting people vaccinated, I am sure most people would lose weight real quick.

I intentionally got clinically obese pushing morbid at least from a BMI standpoint as an experiment. I maintained that weight for almost 2 years to fully incorporate it into my lifestyle and get accustomed to eating 4k+ calories a day and eating "junk" food everyday, I then lost 60lbs, 230lbs down to 170lbs. Maintained 170lbs for almost 2 years to make sure it wasn't some fluke temporary loss and that it was sustainable, before deciding to bulk up to my current weight of 190-195lbs that I have chosen to maintain for about 3 years now.

Weight loss is an entirely mental endeavor. Not saying it is easy but anyone can do it.
that's just fucked up.

but if you're 190-195, that would mean that you're 76" tall?

if you're any height less than that, you yourself would be obese. which would be extremely ironic that you're trying to tell everyone else to lose weight and not be obese...
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Old 09-13-2021, 11:19 PM   #948
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wow, 5 pages?



if you don't think i'm messed up in the head by now, you really ought to.

my point was expected 'worst-case' vs. 'best-case'. not any correlation between weight and hygiene.





neither is even easier.




BMI has always been a little ironic to me. in high school, i was built. my brother and i averaged about 3k miles on our mountain bikes per year, were very involved in sports and outdoor activities. my brother actually cracked his own pelvis in a sprint race in gym from building up more muscle mass in his legs than his bones could support.

but we were both 'obese' per the numbers and heights in the chart. my brother has always been so skinny, he literally disappears when he turns sideways...

now, i could afford to lose some weight. i don't deny that. but my overall weight is only about 30 pounds more than what i was in high school. difference is that more of it is fat than muscle now.

point is, even if i started exercising, i would start building muscle again, and would really end up nearly exactly where i was. there's almost no way i could realistically lose the 60 pounds the BMI says i 'need' to.



that's just fucked up.

but if you're 190-195, that would mean that you're 76" tall?

if you're any height less than that, you yourself would be obese. which would be extremely ironic that you're trying to tell everyone else to lose weight and not be obese...
We both know you already know what you did. No one takes BMI by itself as a serious measurement.

I’m sure you are well aware of all of this but to those less informed I will post anyways.

Technically I do not believe obesity has been clinically defined.

However a few excerpts

Source: https://obesitymedicine.org/definition-of-obesity/

“ Webster’s dictionary defines obesity as “a condition characterized by the excessive accumulation and storage of fat in the body.””

“ BMI often correlates with the degree of body “fatness” but should not be the sole indicator for presence of metabolic disease risk. Advantages of using BMI include being easy to perform, low cost, and reproducible. Disadvantages include not accounting for gender, ethnicity, muscle mass, and frame size. “

“ Abdominal circumference is a measurement of central adiposity and correlates well with metabolic disease risk.”

“ Males: Obesity ≥ 25% body fat”
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Old 09-14-2021, 02:24 AM   #949
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Old 09-14-2021, 09:54 AM   #950
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https://www.chop.edu/centers-program...tem-and-health

"It is true that natural infection almost always causes better immunity than vaccines"

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....24.21262415v1

"Conclusions This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity. Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant."

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...nes/facts.html

"When an immune response begins, antibodies are produced, creating the same response that happens in a natural infection."

https://www.science.org/content/arti...-remains-vital

"The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine" " It’s the largest real-world observational study so far to compare natural and vaccine-induced immunity to SARS-CoV-2, according to its leaders." “It’s a textbook example of how natural immunity is really better than vaccination,”
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Old 09-14-2021, 10:15 AM   #951
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"It is true that natural infection almost always causes better immunity than vaccines"
It's also true that the vaccine has almost 0% risk of putting you in the hospital, or killing you, or giving you long-term respiratory issues, or infecting your family or....

Seems like a good trade-off to me.
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Last edited by Dadhawk; 09-14-2021 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 09-14-2021, 10:16 AM   #952
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IF it was unequivocally agreed that natural immunity is stronger against the delta variant, would that not still make mass vaccination the best and quickest way out of the pandemic with the least casualties?

My point is, why criticize our best option?
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