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Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting What these cars were built for!


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Old 06-02-2023, 05:13 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by DocWalt View Post
Mike,


If you truly believe that trail braking doesn't exist for autocross, you're wrong. Plain and simple. The fast drivers all use trail braking.


That said, I'll play along with your dumb little game here...


You give up the ability to steer while at maximum deceleration, which is why you trail off the pedal as you turn the wheel in.





If you believe there's something else, explain for the class please. This behavior is ridiculous and you do this a lot to a lot of people that are willing to accept it and I am not.
Again, you missed the context here.

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It is a very platform specific post, for the masses, and should not be taken out of that context. Of course, setup will dictate as much as the platform itself.

High level drivers will develop their own preferences, and will likely do what works for them.
It's a broad, generalized statement for folks who are doing basic research. Context is important.

Clearly, none of this applies to you.
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Old 06-02-2023, 05:14 PM   #72
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also, nice attempt at a ninja edit that was less obnoxious and rude...


and you made it WAY more obnoxious and rude. I'm done, you're a waste of time to argue with. You think you know everything but you truly do not.

Maybe just maybe I was testing setup that day and that run just happened to be the run I posted?!? You ever think of that? No, because you're too focused on being right and bragging to a forum that you think someone else sucks, lol.
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Old 06-02-2023, 05:15 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by DocWalt View Post
Until Mike can prove otherwise, here are some results and video that demonstrate why I think he's wrong about trail braking for autocross.








Note, every single corner I braked, I trail braked.


Also, see the results here... 2021 ProSolo Champion.








If you want to clap back at me because I didn't share track videos I can go dig up some track videos of me in a ~180whp RX-8 with coilovers and tires running 2:10s at VIR.

But I don't know what I'm talking about and I get to be talked to condescendingly by a sponsor of the forum? I fail to see how that's acceptable behavior.
These are ND videos. Again, you totally missed the context of the post because you wanted to get up on your soapbox.
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Old 06-02-2023, 05:16 PM   #74
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also, nice attempt at a ninja edit that was less obnoxious and rude
Edits show an edit history buddy.

*edit to show edit history*

After watching your first video, peak lateral G, as well as the next highest instances of peak lateral G, were all observed while you had zero braking input. Have you... reviewed your own data?

Last edited by CSG Mike; 06-02-2023 at 05:22 PM. Reason: edit to show edit history
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Old 06-02-2023, 05:18 PM   #75
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Is what we're trying to get at here that the EBD has a similar BMW CBC feature baked into it that is disabled in pedal dance mode? It'll limit rotation to a predetermined slip level on entry and that is what pedal dance is meant to exploit?
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Old 06-02-2023, 05:18 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
These are ND videos. Again, you totally missed the context of the post because you wanted to get up on your soapbox.

The context of the post was you wanting to brag about how bad autocrossers are because they want nannies to help them... or something.





Can we get an admin in here to clean this trash up?
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Old 06-02-2023, 05:19 PM   #77
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Edits show an edit history buddy.

Not when you sneak things in under the wire...


Can you go be rude to someone else?

How many times do you have to be warned on many forums that behavior like this loses you customers?


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Old 06-02-2023, 05:27 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
Edits show an edit history buddy.

*edit to show edit history*

After watching your first video, peak lateral G, as well as the next highest instances of peak lateral G, were all observed while you had zero braking input. Have you... reviewed your own data?

Do you not understand how combined G/gSum work?

Peak lateral G isn't the end all, be all. You brake hard straight line, you release the brake as you turn into the corner. You want to keep the total G force as high as possible for the whole corner to optimize the grip.


You can see what I mean here with the brake, trailing off as I turned the wheel and keeping the combined acceleration value high.



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Old 06-02-2023, 05:27 PM   #79
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Is what we're trying to get at here that the EBD has a similar BMW CBC feature baked into it that is disabled in pedal dance mode? It'll limit rotation to a predetermined slip level on entry and that is what pedal dance is meant to exploit?
Pedal Dancing eliminates a few features of the car.

1. EBD; the ABS goes into full single channel, rather than distributing to each wheel individually

2. e-lsd torsen assist

Imagine an oldschool car with no electronics. It was always taught to beginners to NOT brake in corners, because this would generally cause them to spin out. 1st gen EBD attempts to eliminate this by distributing braking force to each corner of the car to attempt to straighten the car out under braking. In newer and more advanced cars, EBD will attempt to interact with whater VSA/VSC/PSM/DSC/whatever system to point the car in the intended direction based on driver steering input, without spinning out.

EBD interaction was very visibly indicated on the 1st gens with a flashing slip light under braking, even with a 5 second press to turn TC/VSC off.

the e-lsd function grabs the rear brakes under specific circumstances to help the torsen function; the torsen becomes almost open once unloaded enough, resulting in almost a one tire fire. The e-lsd function brakes the spinning wheel to try to keep the torsen functional, but this can be bad if it's happening at high speed with race pads, where the same brake grab can result in way more braking force than expected with a stock pad.
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Old 06-02-2023, 05:30 PM   #80
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Do you not understand how combined G/gSum work?

Peak lateral G isn't the end all, be all. You brake hard straight line, you release the brake as you turn into the corner. You want to keep the total G force as high as possible for the whole corner to optimize the grip.


You can see what I mean here with the brake, trailing off as I turned the wheel and keeping the combined acceleration value high.



at 28s, your peak G is observed while WOT. Zero trail braking here.

Again, apples and oranges, as this isn't a 1st gen 86, which is what this entire thread actually revolves around.
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Old 06-02-2023, 05:33 PM   #81
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at 28s, your peak G is observed while WOT. Zero trail braking here.

Again, apples and oranges, as this isn't a 1st gen 86, which is what this entire thread actually revolves around.

Good thing this log was a first gen twin...


Also, every car wants trail braking. Except maybe an old 911 that wants to kill you on entry. I've only tootled around on the street in those though, so I wouldn't know.
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Old 06-02-2023, 05:33 PM   #82
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Good thing this log was a first gen twin...
My mistake. 28s in your first video.
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Old 06-02-2023, 05:37 PM   #83
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My mistake. 28s in your first video.

I shared video solely to stop you from attacking me and trying to discredit me so you could walk all over me like you've done to a few other drivers here that I know and trust their driving talent.


Not everyone is willing to push back when insulted. I am because I'm tired of seeing it happen here and on Facebook.
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Old 06-02-2023, 05:42 PM   #84
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I shared video solely to stop you from attacking me and trying to discredit me so you could walk all over me like you've done to a few other drivers here that I know and trust their driving talent.


Not everyone is willing to push back when insulted. I am because I'm tired of seeing it happen here and on Facebook.
Ken, you're discrediting yourself, by literally ignoring the information and data at hand.

This discussion purely revolves around 1st gen pedal dance and its effects, and in following, a general recommendation for novice autocrossers.

Kudos to you on your win. However, it really doesn't bear any relevance to how the PD functions. You can win as many events as you want, and try to argue with m as much as you want, but it still will not change what the PD does.
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