Rigid Collars?

[Calum]

Ok, I'm starting another thread so I don't crash the party in the other thread.

Are these for real? This seems like snake oil to me. I've removed subframes and other than a witness mark from where the bolt head contacted there's no marks at all. If the subframe were moving, even slightly, there would be indications of that, wear patters in the paint. But there isn't. Every time I try to look for a review of these things it's always an overly detailed and long winded review, which leaves me wondering about the motivation of the reviewer.

Can any of the OG's on here attest to the effectiveness of these?

[Wyattkb]

Originally Posted by Calum

Ok, I'm starting another thread so I don't crash the party in the other thread.

Are these for real? This seems like snake oil to me. I've removed subframes and other than a witness mark from where the bolt head contacted there's no marks at all. If the subframe were moving, even slightly, there would be indications of that, wear patters in the paint. But there isn't. Every time I try to look for a review of these things it's always an overly detailed and long winded review, which leaves me wondering about the motivation of the reviewer.

Can any of the OG's on here attest to the effectiveness of these?

Please see this thread http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90452

Lots of information there, as well as a video.

[endless_pain]

Originally Posted by Wyattkb

Please see this thread http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90452

Lots of information there, as well as a video.

I think that's the party he doesn't want to crash.

[Wyattkb]

Originally Posted by endless_pain

I think that's the party he doesn't want to crash.

Ahhh

The info there looked pretty informative.

I believe the CSG guys use some sort of collar and could inform you with a somewhat unbiased opinion. They are very knowledgeable on everything ZN6 related.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by Wyattkb

Ahhh

The info there looked pretty informative.

I believe the CSG guys use some sort of collar and could inform you with a somewhat unbiased opinion. They are very knowledgeable on everything ZN6 related.

Here's part of what makes me thing this might be bull shit:

Watch the video carefully it's pretty obvious that the cars were originally traveling at different speeds and the video speeds were adjusted to make them look the same. In the bottom image you can see a sort of ghost image as the tire is approaching the bump, but as the car drops off the car drops off the bump the ghosting slows and stops. Also, the two cars aren't perfectly lined up so it's hard to tell, but it looks like the bottom car starts to lag behind more at the end. To me, it looks like they sped the car up a little in the bottom image so it wouldn't come to a complete stop and used the brakes to prevent the rebound.

But I'm not a professional.

[fika84]

The subframe is moving because of the softer rubber bushings (you won't see "signs" of wear)... the idea is to remove the slop. I did the whiteline rear and you can ABSOLUTELY feel the difference when you go into a corner. The entire rear end is more planted and solid.

[Hyper4mance2k]

Originally Posted by fika84

The subframe is moving because of the softer rubber bushings (you won't see "signs" of wear)... the idea is to remove the slop. I did the whiteline rear and you can ABSOLUTELY feel the difference when you go into a corner. The entire rear end is more planted and solid.

Apples & oranges. The front subframe doesn't have any bushings. That's what is in question here. It's clear that the rear subframe benefits from harder bushings rigid collars, what ever to prevent movement, but is the front subframe actually moving? I have no idea. I've dropped countless subframes in FB & FC Rx-7s -which are also hard mounted, and I've never seen signs of movement.


Will it make a difference? Probably. Is that difference quantifiable? Probably not.

[fika84]

Originally Posted by Hyper4mance2k

Apples & oranges. The front subframe doesn't have any bushings. That's what is in question here. It's clear that the rear subframe benefits from harder bushings rigid collars, what ever to prevent movement, but is the front subframe actually moving? I have no idea. I've dropped countless subframes in FB & FC Rx-7s -which are also hard mounted, and I've never seen signs of movement.


Will it make a difference? Probably. Is that difference quantifiable? Probably not.

Gotcha.

[Mark@S]

*We have not done any quantitative testing on these and this is not the view of STILLEN*

I have personally driven a BRZ before and after the rigid collar installation. I can definitely feel a difference. It is hard to describe completely, but the car does feel more solid with them and the front suspension felt a little more responsive.

SpeedHunters did a review on them as well. Can probably find it with the Googlez

[200hp/tonne]

I don't think rigidity or prevention of movement are the goals of this product at all. From what i understood, the collars center the subframe on its mounting holes, and ensure that the subframe is parallel to the monocoque, which would add symmetry to the alignment. Rigidity would be helped a little bit by pre-stressing the mounting locations in the presence or absence of tolerance stack up.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Hyper4mance2k

Apples & oranges. The front subframe doesn't have any bushings. That's what is in question here. It's clear that the rear subframe benefits from harder bushings rigid collars, what ever to prevent movement, but is the front subframe actually moving? I have no idea. I've dropped countless subframes in FB & FC Rx-7s -which are also hard mounted, and I've never seen signs of movement.


Will it make a difference? Probably. Is that difference quantifiable? Probably not.

It absolutely is. It's so obviously different on a car with an exhaust that even someone who is not into cars at all will notice a difference. The giveaway is that because everything is now "attached", the harmonic resonance frequency of the entire car changes.

Every car has a resonance frequency where stuff just... vibrates, and an exhaust helps reveal this vibration. At a certain RPM, you'll notice vibrations. Once rigid collars are in, that RPM where stuff vibrates changes.

CSG David's had Rigid collars on his s2k before the FT86 was even around.

[Hyper4mance2k]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

It absolutely is. It's so obviously different on a car with an exhaust that even someone who is not into cars at all will notice a difference. The giveaway is that because everything is now "attached", the harmonic resonance frequency of the entire car changes.

Every car has a resonance frequency where stuff just... vibrates, and an exhaust helps reveal this vibration. At a certain RPM, you'll notice vibrations. Once rigid collars are in, that RPM where stuff vibrates changes.

CSG David's had Rigid collars on his s2k before the FT86 was even around.

Well unless you can provide numbers which show the reduction in variation between L&R suspension movements before and after install, or an increase in chassis rigidity, or etc etc... then these are in fact not quantifiable. You can give all sorts of qualifying statements that these, without a doubt, increase handling feel and chassis response. I, with no doubt, believe that these work and will help change the way the car feels, but providing quantitative data that says so would prove to be difficult.


That being said, I want some, and I want them now. I'm supposed to get aligned on Friday for the event at Big Willow on 7/11. When can I come pick them up? LOL

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Hyper4mance2k

Well unless you can provide numbers which show the reduction in variation between L&R suspension movements before and after install, or an increase in chassis rigidity, or etc etc... then these are in fact not quantifiable. You can give all sorts of qualifying statements that these, without a doubt, increase handling feel and chassis response. I, with no doubt, believe that these work and will help change the way the car feels, but providing quantitative data that says so would prove to be difficult.


That being said, I want some, and I want them now. I'm supposed to get aligned on Friday for the event at Big Willow on 7/11. When can I come pick them up? LOL

That level of data is far, far beyond CSG's budget, so it won't be happening, at least, not from us.

The harmonic frequency analysis is so obvious that a quantified log isn't necessary. It's THAT obvious.

[Shankenstein]

Originally Posted by 200hp/tonne

I don't think rigidity or prevention of movement are the goals of this product at all. From what i understood, the collars center the subframe on its mounting holes, and ensure that the subframe is parallel to the monocoque, which would add symmetry to the alignment. Rigidity would be helped a little bit by pre-stressing the mounting locations in the presence or absence of tolerance stack up.

Well put!

It's not going to prevent your front subframe from sliding around, because it's not currently sliding around.

The front subframe is rigidly attached, but from people's pictures, it isn't always well-centered. Precisely aligning the mounting points will make your geometry more symmetric. That's a good thing (except for your alignment tech who can't use this as adjustment anymore). 1 mm can be a big distance when you're talking about finicky suspension points.

These collars are very unlikely to hurt performance... but there's no guarantee they will help significantly either. The value that a resonant frequency shift presents is up to you.