SCCA Solo C Street Discussion

[simpleisbest]

I thought moving the twins to ES was put on the table a while back....granted it was met with pitchforks by many of the NB Miata owners, but if you look at the used market its getting tougher to find a Hard S compatible NB and really tough to find a decent 2001-2003 MR-S!!! At least the FR-S/BRZs are plentiful, will continue to go down in price in the used market, and are relatively reliable.

[NJ10]

Speaking of other aliens coming into CS, I think Pallotta mentioned campaigning an ND next season in CS during his post-win interview.


Edit: and once the transmission fix comes in, the ND participation numbers are only going to go up. Maybe the twins and NDs together might actually be too big a class to manage. I haven't been autocrossing long enough to make that judgement but, a possibility?

[justint5387]

I don't think the twins should go to ES, ES should stays cheap with cars less than 10k.

DS sounds like a better place for them.

[Biggins]

I'm going to get the rest of the TRD parts and continue to run my FR-S in CS next season, but I will have a contingency plan (another car) if I don't see any chance. I will probably also have springs/shocks/bars handy and ready to change quickly from CS to DS trim if that ends up being where we end up...

I agree with most of the posts here, but I don't plan to bail on it... yet.

Nats was fun and quite disappointing because as a single driver with a low number, I didn't stand a chance on day two. I also switched to the Kumho on day two because they had tread and my Bridgestones did not. They were great and it was the right call. It was my worst finish at Nats, but I feel like it's the best I've driven there. Unfortunately, the weather did not cooperate.

[edj]

The TRD parts are thought to be a .5 sec advantage on a 60 second course. ymmv.
If the BRZ/non-TRD FR-S's go to DS I will probably take the TRD parts off for next year.

The ND is not likely to be reclassed. The Twins are too fast for ES.

[Shark_Bait88]

I'm getting ready to make a swap from a very light STX prep back to Street as a means to save some money, but waiting until I hear the final word of what changes will be made.

I'd love to see the ND moved up and the FR-S/BRZ (even if it's just the FR-S w/ TRD parts) stay in CS, since we've got an awesome field for CS in Chicago region. Buuut, if the TRD FR-S and ND stay in CS and BRZ/Non-TRD FR-Ss get moved to DS, I may go there.

Any speculation on how the BRZ/FR-S would stack up against the JWC Minis and WRXs in DS?

[TMF]

Did you beat Dave Ogburn III at nats? If your answer is "no" and you're driving an FRS, then you still have room to grow in your FRS and further develop your driving skills.

That's the boat that I'm in...even though there is a newer, "faster" car available, I feel like I still have much to learn in terms of my driver ability before jumping ship or throwing more parts at it.

There were still 10 twins in the trophies. For me personally, my goal is to trophy at nats and seeing as almost half of the trophies went to a twin, it is still absolutely possible to do in the FRS. We also have a very strong CS class locally and the ND drivers aren't a threat, so locally the car is still very competitive.

Now, if I was at the pointy end and shooting for a jacket, then I might be going to STX. (I'm too tall for Miata's, so that's not an option ). Until then, CS FRS it is.

[Shark_Bait88]

That's definitely a fair point. My main goal is to be in a class where a lot of my friends are and be able to duke it out with them. You're probably right about still being competitive locally. As long as I don't go up to Milwaukee region. Idk what they're putting in the cheese up there, but damn those guys are fast!

[Biggins]

Originally Posted by TMF

Did you beat Dave Ogburn III at nats? If your answer is "no" and you're driving an FRS, then you still have room to grow in your FRS and further develop your driving skills.

That's the boat that I'm in...even though there is a newer, "faster" car available, I feel like I still have much to learn in terms of my driver ability before jumping ship or throwing more parts at it.

There were still 10 twins in the trophies. For me personally, my goal is to trophy at nats and seeing as almost half of the trophies went to a twin, it is still absolutely possible to do in the FRS. We also have a very strong CS class locally and the ND drivers aren't a threat, so locally the car is still very competitive.

Now, if I was at the pointy end and shooting for a jacket, then I might be going to STX. (I'm too tall for Miata's, so that's not an option ). Until then, CS FRS it is.

Nationals is still one event, granted it's the most important, but it's at a unique site and concrete and skewed from drying from full wet conditions... I do wonder how many of the FRS/BRZs that were in legitimate contention after day one were on OTS Koni/stock shocks? Not many... the ones with the best times seem to have the baller shocks. If you look at national event results for the season, the trend I see is that I will want MCS or revalved Koni/Cusco/Bilsteins to stay "competitive" in CS.

I agree to max out your driving skills, but there is a point when the car is at a disadvantage. I drove the Garfield ND earlier this year before their set-up work and was immediately more than a second faster in one run than after 15+ in my FRS. They have driven my FRS multiple times over the past few years and ran nearly identical times to me.

I think the FRS/BRZ can still trophy in CS. I hope to grab one next year, but do I think it can still win at the national level? I think we will need a higher speed course to make the ND shift a lot with no low speed digs. It proved to work at Spring Nats, Wilmington, and some other big events. I'll waffle more from now until next season, but I still plan to run in CS, but I don't look forward to $4k on shocks if I go all-in.

[Locust]

What a lot of you aren't taking into account is that there were more twins than NDs in the class this year (in a fair class your representation in the trophies would reflect your distribution) and that it's the first year for the ND. Next year with more development and more seat time there's going to be more ND drivers and a lot of them will be faster.

[MarkR171]

I like the ND, and I'd probably have one if it didn't put me at two impractical roadsters... However, I also still love my FRS and will be staying in CS, unless non-TRD jumps to DS because I don't think the TRD parts are worth going up a class. I don't see that happening though, and I think the top finishers in NDs at nationals deserve credit for their driving and not just automatically attribute their results to the car.

Daniel McCelvey finished 3rd in CS in an RX8 in 2014.
Julian Garfield finished 2nd in a CSP Miata in 2015.

12-time national champ Andy Hollis only managed 11th in an ND, probably because he isn't used to the car yet.

The ND is probably a couple tenths quicker in perfect runs than a TRD prepped FRS... but unless you're of the caliber to fight for the win, it's not going to matter. I still have to improve as a driver before I care about having the best possible tool for the job.

I managed to take advantage of the second day conditions to make up for my poor runs on day 1 to trophy (16th) and I'm hoping to continue improving the car (different sway bar setup, add koni shocks, and stop using stock wheels and brake pads) while I improve as a driver.

I have Julian and Brian Garfield to race with locally to benchmark in the meantime.

[Twinz]

Originally Posted by MarkR171

The ND is probably a couple tenths quicker in perfect runs than a TRD prepped FRS...

What data point's are you using to get to a "a couple tenths quicker"?

Originally Posted by Locust

So... East course (1st-5th places):

CS top times - 62.469, 62.622, 62.699, 63.024, 63.077 (Ogburn).

And just so we're open about all the information...
"Non-David-Ogburn" FR-S/BRZ top times - 64.052, 64.069, 64.162, etc. etc. (first BRZ is 64.389 and second is 64.544).

Dave won CS last year and widened his gap over all other Twins this year. In fact he created such a large gap between himself and other twins (in a class packed full of twins) it's rather evident that he is an outlier on the fast end of the talent spectrum.

The ND's did not have any driver pull away from other drivers in the same car the way that David did with the rest of the twin drivers.

I'm not trying to say the ND drivers aren't great drivers. Cars don't yet drive themselves and McCelvey won a hard-fought battle for his Jacket. However, even if you explain-away the huge gap Dave put on all the other twin drivers by assuming all of the ~38 other twin drivers were driving more than a second and a half off the pace per day (average for both days), that still leaves Dave more than half a second off the pace on the dry day.

0.6 seconds is not a crazy gap, but I don't think it should be euphemistically described as "a couple tenths".

[MarkR171]

Originally Posted by Twinz

What data point's are you using to get to a "a couple tenths quicker"?

I am not basing that statement on data as it's difficult to tell with all the variables and only 3 runs on one course. Maybe Dave changed something and it didn't work as well this year. Maybe he didn't get the run he wanted. His last run was slower than his second, maybe he made a mistake that cost him. It happens to the best drivers, Sam Strano coned all 6 runs this year.

I'm not saying the ND isn't faster, it definitely seems to be, at least on this year's courses. It could just as well be a half second quicker, all things being equal. Maybe I'm just being optimistic hoping the gap isn't quite that wide.

Still doesn't change anything though. All we can do is voice our opinion to SCCA and see what happens... or go and buy an ND. There seems to be the car to have in most street classes, so I don't see why they would treat the ND any differently if it proves to be the CS car.

[Twinz]

Originally Posted by MarkR171

Maybe Dave changed something and it didn't work as well this year. Maybe he didn't get the run he wanted. His last run was slower than his second, maybe he made a mistake that cost him. It happens to the best drivers, Sam Strano coned all 6 runs this year.

Dave put ~ a second or more *per day* on everyone driving the same car as him. (an even larger gap than last year)

I would say whatever he did to, and with, his twin worked very well.