Potential Cause of rumored GR86’s blown engine? Seal packing(RTV) was peeled off

[Aon]

Originally Posted by removedonut

This is a special scenario due to Toyota’s very strange relationship in this specific region. In Arkansas, Louisiana, Texas, Mississippi, and Oklahoma, Gulf States Toyota (an independent company) has exclusive rights for authorized sale and distribution of Toyota vehicles in those states. They effectively take Toyota USA’s place in most, if not all decision making, and they are the entity that presides over every dealership in the region. This is due to a stupid ass agreement that toyota signed like 50 years ago.

It’s entirely possible this issue never even went as high as Toyota themselves because of this.

Just as a counterpoint to the theory that TMNA wasn't involved, I present Exhibit A.

[pq86]

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Nobody is saying that Toyota should not be making their customers good if they have problems.
The engines are Subaru, designed by Subaru engineers, Made in Subaru plants by Subaru employees. The identification and fix of the ROOT CAUSE is a Subaru issue. This is why what plant is indeed very important. Remember that Toyota buys these cars from Subaru. They are customers just like you.

You counter your own statement at the end there. If they designed it for a certain amount and that amount is not what is there then it is a process issue.

If there is one part that they both have designed, its actually the engine. I'm sure the plant is the likely place where its an issue, but what exactly is the _point_ of arguing about it - you think toyota is just a customer in this regard, then that kind of thinking could be said about every aspect of the supply chain that produces these car. Again why? Do we feel as though the responsibility changes in how Toyota needs to respond to the issue?

I think you miss the point about the argument I make at the end, what if the specification is wrong, not the implementation. Like say when they designed the fuel pump incorrectly in the first gen. Specifications can be wrong when put into practice.

[Blighty]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

Changing the argument is not a valid tactic.

The specified sealant, amount, and application area is very well known and understood since it has been in use for a decade on the same family of engines. If that was the issue we would be seeing it on a lot more engines now wouldn’t we?

I didn't change the argument, whoever started up a discussion about the factory line did.

My point is that Toyota need to fix the issue.

I think I stated the reasons why we might not be seeing it on a lot more engines - because its not checked as part of any standard servicing, and the issue can be something that works its way into something more significant over time, not necessarily every engine blowing immediately.

The very clear reports and imagery comming out from lots of people, and the absolute radio silence about this issue even in teardown reports that had it, makes me feel very uneasy about what is going on.

[mycrors7]

Originally Posted by Blighty

I didn't change the argument, whoever started up a discussion about the factory line did.

My point is that Toyota need to fix the issue.

I think I stated the reasons why we might not be seeing it on a lot more engines - because its not checked as part of any standard servicing, and the issue can be something that works its way into something more significant over time, not necessarily every engine blowing immediately.

The very clear reports and imagery comming out from lots of people, and the absolute radio silence about this issue even in teardown reports that had it, makes me feel very uneasy about what is going on.

Toyota isnt the one to blame for the root cause.. or at least from what we know to be the cause so far.

Toyota can fix it sure.. or attempt to, but until Subaru figures out exactly which machine is out of calibration or is programmed to be generous, it will never end the cycle of issues.

you fix problems at their roots. redoing the timing chain covers and oil pans are a fix to a problem that shouldnt exist.

The only thing toyota should be fixing is their FST's and how warranties are handled.

As of right now, Subaru should be focused on finding what went wrong and where.

they can replace engines once engines are assembled properly and correctly.

[JesseG]

The way I see it is, Toyota should make things right for their customers and cover failed engines that show RTV in the oil. Toyota did NOT design the FA24D, they contributed their D4S system (same as the FA20). BUT they sell the GR86 as a Toyota model, and they should stand behind their partnership with Subaru. Apparently Subaru is covering failed engines under their warranty. Toyota will do the same eventually, but I feel bad for the first Toyota owners fighting this battle.
I still want to buy one of the twins (if a GR Corolla is impossible to find), and I hope this RTV issue has an easy “fix”. It’s probably a tricky part of the assembly process. Too much and you can end up with chunks of sealant in the engine. Too little and the engine won’t be sealed properly.
I remember from the first gen twins when recalls were being done for the valve springs. Some engines were failing later because of RTV being applied incorrectly. Sounds like Subaru needs to think about a different way to seal their engines.


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[removedonut]

Originally Posted by Aon

Just as a counterpoint to the theory that TMNA wasn't involved, I present Exhibit A.

Well that solves that mystery. Thanks for popping in on the little tornado you’ve created lol, I hope watching the entire GR86 community busting down toyota’s door is at least a small solace for your lost engine.

[justinco]

Took my car apart tonight to check out my oil pickup and the RTV job. I autox and track a lot and just got back from a ~1500 mile road trip with 70 minutes of track time at UMC outer loop. So, wanted to make sure it was safe for the future, just in case.

Only 4k miles on the car to date
3 autox, 1 track day

No oiling or temp issues at all, car has run perfectly fine. But, now oil pickup and RTV is cleaned up and redone, without using 8lbs of RTV.

[Dylans47]

Originally Posted by justinco

Took my car apart tonight to check out my oil pickup and the RTV job. I autox and track a lot and just got back from a ~1500 mile road trip with 70 minutes of track time at UMC outer loop. So, wanted to make sure it was safe for the future, just in case.

Only 4k miles on the car to date
3 autox, 1 track day

No oiling or temp issues at all, car has run perfectly fine. But, now oil pickup and RTV is cleaned up and redone, without using 8lbs of RTV.

Was there RTV in your oil pickup? I see your last photo has bits of RTV, but your third photo shows the RTV relatively in tact.

Wish I could do this when I get my GR86, but this would just be another reason for Toyota to deny a warranty claim... Stuck between a rock and a hard place.

[Petah78]

Originally Posted by justinco

Took my car apart tonight to check out my oil pickup and the RTV job. I autox and track a lot and just got back from a ~1500 mile road trip with 70 minutes of track time at UMC outer loop. So, wanted to make sure it was safe for the future, just in case.

Only 4k miles on the car to date
3 autox, 1 track day

No oiling or temp issues at all, car has run perfectly fine. But, now oil pickup and RTV is cleaned up and redone, without using 8lbs of RTV.

Thank you for the info. What is the build date on your unit? Having said that, there is still a poop load of RTV on the pan.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by justinco

Took my car apart tonight to check out my oil pickup and the RTV job. I autox and track a lot and just got back from a ~1500 mile road trip with 70 minutes of track time at UMC outer loop. So, wanted to make sure it was safe for the future, just in case.

Only 4k miles on the car to date
3 autox, 1 track day

No oiling or temp issues at all, car has run perfectly fine. But, now oil pickup and RTV is cleaned up and redone, without using 8lbs of RTV.

OK looking at that one I am going to throw another variable into the mix.
It is possible that the amount of sealant is in spec but the oil pan is torqued down too tight and actually cutting it off. It would only take a couple of pounds over torque to cut into and damage the bead allowing it to break off.

Here is a used pan from an Ascent (FA24F) posted on EBay. There is just as much sealant as the FA24G but it is fully intact and there are not even any indications of being cut, breaking or other damage at the contact points around the inner edge. The bead is even on all the contact surfaces and remains pristine even after removal from the block.



This pan sealant is totally different. The contact points are irregular, the inner bead is obviously pinched off and torn.

[justinco]

Originally Posted by Dylans47

Was there RTV in your oil pickup? I see your last photo has bits of RTV, but your third photo shows the RTV relatively in tact.
...

Yes, see the first photo in my reply above.

Originally Posted by Petah78

Thank you for the info. What is the build date on your unit? Having said that, there is still a poop load of RTV on the pan.

MFG date is 12/21.

[justinco]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

OK looking at that one I am going to throw another variable into the mix.
It is possible that the amount of sealant is in spec but the oil pan is torqued down too tight and actually cutting it off. It would only take a couple of pounds over torque to cut into and damage the bead allowing it to break off.

....<snipped>

Yea, it's weird. When I removed the oil pan bolts they did not feel tight at all, so it seemed like they were torque'd to spec (57in-lbs per shop manual).

Below are some more before photos, prior to cleaning everything up and resealing. I also have a full video popping up on my channel in the morning.

[Petah78]

Originally Posted by justinco

Yea, it's weird. When I removed the oil pan bolts they did not feel tight at all, so it seemed like they were torque'd to spec (57in-lbs per shop manual).

Below are some more before photos, prior to cleaning everything up and resealing. I also have a full video popping up on my channel in the morning.

So it looks like there is a significant piece of RTV that sealed the oil pan that was torn. Just a matter of time before it could have ripped off and sucked into the pick up. In your case, it looks like you already had some blockage, are you not concerned that your bearing could have already been starved to a certain extent? How did you conclude you had no oiling issues? Oil pressure gauge? And it looks like the RTV was still relatively intact on your oil pan yet the pick up was still blocked, any ideas where did this come from? The timing cover? Other areas in the engine?