Potential Cause of rumored GR86’s blown engine? Seal packing(RTV) was peeled off

[clio]

Originally Posted by otter

I haven't had time to pull my own oil pan yet but something that's stood out to me as I see everyone's pictures - there appears to be very little surface area on the engine side of the mating surface. I've never worked on a Subaru engine but for other engines I've pulled pans on there would usually be about 3/4" of mating surface but some of these pictures look like they're only 1/2", if not less. I could be wrong though since it can be hard to tell scale in pictures without a banana. That narrow surface would make it super easy to over-apply.

When I've seen engine manufacturing lines on Youtube the RTV is applied perfectly/precisely, by robotics. I don't know how Subaru tackle this but I'd be surprised if it were done manually.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by spcmafia

The Drive has now reported this too.
https://www.thedrive.com/news/toyota...as-not-talking


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Once one does they all will. It won't be bad until they start trying to on up the others by making shit up and reporting it as fact.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by clio

When I've seen engine manufacturing lines on Youtube the RTV is applied perfectly/precisely, by robotics. I don't know how Subaru tackle this but I'd be surprised if it were done manually.

We have 40 manufacturing robots in our plant. An easy 99% of the time the robots do indeed do things perfectly. It only takes that 1% where somebody programed it wrong, the material was off spec, it was too hot, it was too cold, there was a power surge, there was a power drop, the compressor was off by 5 PSI, etc, etc, etc, etc.
All in all it happens.

Also remember you are not going to see videos of the robots screwing up on YouTube unless it is all blurry and smuggled out.

[Opie]

I find it hilarious that people still think that the 2013 Gen 1 is the most trouble prone and are surprised when mass produced products, especially new ones, have issues.

My early prod 13 was wrecked twice and totalled on the second accident before 20k miles (prior owner). It's been tracked heavily ever since and beat on, now at 34k....still on the original engine (never had the valve spring recall completed), original HPFP, original throwout bearing, original clutch, original transmission & original rear diff, both original rear axles (though they have been repacked)....IMHO issues are not usually engineering or build quality problems...

As I mentioned before, failures are investigated and causes found. If it is a defect it will be repaired, a production change will be made and/or a TSB will result. If it is abuse, or outside influence, that will be well documented...internally of course. Or publicly if taken to court. It won't be solved by public opinion.

[Opie]

Originally Posted by ninjan00dles

Cavitation due to inlet blockage... you have to take into account mass flow rate, fluid velocity as the suction inlet shrinks, oil pump speed /rpm and a few other things. If you have a blockage the fluid velocity has to increase to maintain the same mass flow rate which lowers your pressure, look at bernoulli's law. Even if it's not completely blocked, at sustained high RPM with all those factors that's enough to give you enough starvation to spin your bearings.

There was a guy who tracked extensively /owned a shop in South America (Peru?) on this forum who was blowing 13-16 motors left and right until he went to a larger pickup tube. The thread should be on this site, he had some good data points.

Fair possibility. But I would think that with the pickup designed to combat loss of pressure they would've considered cavitation as well...

And considering the ECM monitors oil pressure, the oil pressure warning light would've (should've) illuminated had there been a loss of pressure from cavitation or some other issue.

My 13 is tracked extensively...still on original engine....

[Lantanafrs2]

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[Robertw]

https://www.motortrend.com/news/toyo...T%3Atrueanthem

Motor trend getting in on the action.

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by Opie

I find it hilarious that people still think that the 2013 Gen 1 is the most trouble prone and are surprised when mass produced products, especially new ones, have issues.

My early prod 13 was wrecked twice and totalled on the second accident before 20k miles (prior owner). It's been tracked heavily ever since and beat on, now at 34k....still on the original engine (never had the valve spring recall completed), original HPFP, original throwout bearing, original clutch, original transmission & original rear diff, both original rear axles (though they have been repacked)....IMHO issues are not usually engineering or build quality problems...

Any power mods? Stock tune?

[NoHaveMSG]

Originally Posted by Opie

Fair possibility. But I would think that with the pickup designed to combat loss of pressure they would've considered cavitation as well...

And considering the ECM monitors oil pressure, the oil pressure warning light would've (should've) illuminated had there been a loss of pressure from cavitation or some other issue.

My 13 is tracked extensively...still on original engine....

I’ve never seen a low pressure warning light come on even when the car had no oil pressure and the rod let go.

[strat61caster]

I mean I’ve got 116k on my original 12/12 build date car, replaced TOB, replaced coil packs, replaced axles, did the valve spring recall (which fixed my leaky timing cover, thanks Toyota!) and it’s fine. I typically rev to 5k rpm and dump the clutch multiple times per weekend for autox. It’s seen a couple track days, will likely see a few more before I’m done with it. My anecdote does not all of a sudden make the car bulletproof and problem free.

[Dylans47]

My 2023 GR86 is coming in shortly and all this talk is making me second guess the possible purchase, especially because I want to track worry free.

Lets say the short block needs replacing, what happens to the carfax or paper trail? Would it be branded "rebuilt" title? Not only would I have to wait months to be get the car back while the engine is being fixed, but now I have a rebuilt title car which is worth a considerable amount less.

[soundman98]

Originally Posted by Dylans47

My 2023 GR86 is coming in shortly and all this talk is making me second guess the possible purchase, especially because I want to track worry free.

Lets say the short block needs replacing, what happens to the carfax or paper trail? Would it be branded "rebuilt" title? Not only would I have to wait months to be get the car back while the engine is being fixed, but now I have a rebuilt title car which is worth a considerable amount less.

a number of things to unpack here. lots of fear.

so first, carfax:
anything can and will happen with a carfax. because carfax is like your brothers ex-girlfriends step fathers sisters cousin telling you something factual about your new wife that lived on the other side of the country from them. there is nothing about carfax is that is legally binding. they're really just a crappy search engine for vehicle history. think less google search, more internet explorer search. the fact that anyone trusts them more than a used car salesman with a gold chain is more a testament to their marketing skills than their database collection skills. carfax has absolutely no official standing within any governing body anywhere in the world. they are an information supplier. and one that makes very clear what an individual chooses to do with the information they supply is not their responsibility:

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/trust...8#.UbOr4_nrxyU



second, 'rebuilt' titles:
a rebuilt title occurs within the governing process of vehicle registration. for a vehicle to be registered as 'rebuilt', the vehicle would have to first be legally 'totaled'.

by 'totaled', it means that the vehicle was damaged, and an insurance agency, after performing an assessment of the damage, has decided to write the vehicle off as a 'total loss' due to the costs and/or liability-of-repair incurred from the damage to the vehicle--the threshold for this varies from state to state, as well as different insurers policies. they issue a pay out for the vehicles market value to the insured person.


from there, the title is branded. the insurance then takes the vehicle and sells it at auction to any entity willing to put a bid in to purchase it. they do this in an effort to offset the costs of the payout. sometimes you can buy your totaled vehicle back at this point as well.

from there, that entity takes the vehicle and sometimes will fix the damage the insurance company didn't want to. at that point, they get the vehicle re-certified for road use via the local authorities, and it finally receives a rebuilt title designation.

so simply swapping the motor, it's impossible to get a rebuilt title designation. it's also important to remember that this can really only happen when insurance is involved. if one doesn't involve insurance, there is no payout, and unless a local official marks the vehicle as 'unsafe', there will likely never be a branded title either.


what i believe you're looking for is 'diminished value', ie; with the recorded change of the motor, there's a loss of the resale value of the vehicle when compared to the same vehicle without the manufacturing defect that caused the replacement.

i believe that's an entirely separate legal proceeding that you would pursue through typical legal channels against the automaker after the work was performed and noted on the vehicles history.


but all of this worrying before getting the car is just causing grey hairs for no reason. beat the snot out of the car. if it fails within warranty, bring it back, make it toyota/subaru's problem. that's what the warranty is there for. to catch manufacturing defects.

[removedonut]

Originally Posted by Opie

And considering the ECM monitors oil pressure, the oil pressure warning light would've (should've) illuminated had there been a loss of pressure from cavitation or some other issue.

The ECM in this car does not monitor oil pressure, nor is there an oil pressure sensor anywhere in the car. There is a simple switch that engages when there is absolutely zero oil pressure in the car. This requires A LOT to go wrong, and as mentioned you can have complete catastrophic engine failure without it ever coming on.

[Dylans47]

Originally Posted by soundman98

a number of things to unpack here. lots of fear.

so first, carfax....

Totally understand what you're saying about carfax. In fact, my '91 miata has a random false carfax statement saying rear end collision. Never happened.

Anyways, most people aren't like us. 99% of people will see a red warning symbol on a carfax report and walk away or ask for a considerable discount.

This "diminished value" you mentioned wouldn't show up on Carfax, I'm assuming. So how might someone buying a car with a replacement short block even know there was ever an issue? It sounds like the seller is the only person who could provide that information.

In other words, if a short block is replaced under warranty it will have no effect on resale value?