Center for Automotive Safety calls for halt to recall

[srt4evah]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

And we also have no idea the number of successfully repaired springs so the failure rate may be 1%, 10% or 90%. The lack of data works both ways and to assume that the 40 reports of failure we do know about represent the majority is probably way off base.

We know there were more failures from the recall work than from the bad springs, that's a certainty.

I'm not going to search it now, but Subaru claimed something like 11 failures of valve springs had occurred, and they were doing the recall out of an "abundance of caution". Fair enough, good intention, but since the recall has started, we know of a few dozen vehicles that have had engine failures shortly after the work was done.

The failure rate of the recall work is higher than the failure rate of the valve springs. Clear problem there.

[srt4evah]

Here, I went and looked it up: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jensen/.../#3efa4f983d58

"Between April 2012 and August in 2015 Subaru said it had eleven reports of vehicles stalling in the United States."

11 failures from the valve springs.

40+ failures after the recall work, on this forum alone.

The rate of successful recall work isn't relevant as far as safety goes, the comparison of the rate of failure between the valve springs and the recall work is the relevant safety metric.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by srt4evah

I would hope the NHTSA would order the manufacturers to suspend the recall until they have a firm and full grasp of why it's caused a higher rate of failures than the issue they're recalling. They're increasing the danger and chance of harm for their customers, despite their intention, so that should be stopped until it can be assured that it's no longer the case.

Personally, I don't blame the manufacturer as much as I blame the local dealerships. The job CAN be done correctly, it's just that the way it's designed right now, it's leading to a significant failure rate, cars dying on the road, exactly the problem they sought to avoid. Maybe give the techs additional training, or give them another 6 hours on the bill to do the job more carefully, I don't know what the remedy is, but clearly something has to be done to improve the success rate.

I think they do have a firm and full grasp of what has happened. This is why they released to updated instructions and a heavy handed warning to dealers that any failure due to repairs will be on their plate.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by srt4evah

Here, I went and looked it up: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jensen/.../#3efa4f983d58

"Between April 2012 and August in 2015 Subaru said it had eleven reports of vehicles stalling in the United States."

11 failures from the valve springs.

40+ failures after the recall work, on this forum alone.

The rate of successful recall work isn't relevant as far as safety goes, the comparison of the rate of failure between the valve springs and the recall work is the relevant safety metric.

There was a document way back in one of the 100 or so threads that listed 94 failures from the springs worldwide.
Still better odds than the repair work though since all of the repair failures are on the FA20 engine which is only in the 25,000 FRS and BRZs. There are no repair failures reported on any of the other models.


The rate of successful repairs is certainly relevant in that the issue may not be as large as being reported. We just don't know.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I think they do have a firm and full grasp of what has happened. This is why they released to updated instructions and a heavy handed warning to dealers that any failure due to repairs will be on their plate.

Correction, the consumers plate. Not sure I’ve seen a single “dealer” cover their work yet. The only success stories are where Subaru or Toyota throws their own money at the dealers crap work.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

There was a document way back in one of the 100 or so threads that listed 94 failures from the springs worldwide.
Still better odds than the repair work though since all of the repair failures are on the FA20 engine which is only in the 25,000 FRS and BRZs. There are no repair failures reported on any of the other models.


The rate of successful repairs is certainly relevant in that the issue may not be as large as being reported. We just don't know.

When it comes to law suits (which is what they are worried about) it really doesn’t matter how many jobs have been successful. A single death or serious injury is all it takes. Lawyers are clever too, they could probably find a way to pin a dealers bad work on Toyota/Subaru.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ermax

Correction, the consumers plate. Not sure I’ve seen a single “dealer” cover their work yet. The only success stories are where Subaru or Toyota throws their own money at the dealers crap work.

There are 10 on the list that have covered it. We have no clue if Toyota or the dealer paid. Only 3 that have been refused outright. Of those one was modified and one a salvage title. What does it matter who paid as long as the owner didn’t have too anyway?

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

There are 10 on the list that have covered it. We have no clue if Toyota or the dealer paid. Only 3 that have been refused outright. Of those one was modified and one a salvage title. What does it matter who paid as long as the owner didn’t have too anyway?

Following the discussion in these threads I’ve gotten the impression most were handled by corporate.

My point was if Toyota says no then it’s on the owner not the dealer because the dealers are shady as crap.

[srt4evah]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

There was a document way back in one of the 100 or so threads that listed 94 failures from the springs worldwide.
Still better odds than the repair work though since all of the repair failures are on the FA20 engine which is only in the 25,000 FRS and BRZs. There are no repair failures reported on any of the other models.


The rate of successful repairs is certainly relevant in that the issue may not be as large as being reported. We just don't know.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ermax

Following the discussion in these threads I’ve gotten the impression most were handled by corporate.

My point was if Toyota says no then it’s on the owner not the dealer because the dealers are shady as crap.

An impression is not a fact. All dealers are not shady. Just some of them. It reamains that we have no clue how many responsible dealers did the right thing and the assumption they are all shady is not realistic.

[srt4evah]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

An impression is not a fact. All dealers are not shady. Just some of them. It reamains that we have no clue how many responsible dealers did the right thing and the assumption they are all shady is not realistic.

Shady or not, I think the main question is simple:

Which is a safer choice for my car, having the recall performed or not having the recall performed?

Right now the data points towards the latter.

US region valve spring failures: 11
US region recall failures: 40?

Certainly not every failure is sure to have been from the recall work, but there must also be failures that were not reported to this forum. It may not be possible to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, but it's as certain to me as it can be that the recall work has caused more failures than the actual valve springs.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by srt4evah

Shady or not, I think the main question is simple:

Which is a safer choice for my car, having the recall performed or not having the recall performed?

Right now the data points towards the latter.

US region valve spring failures: 11
US region recall failures: 40?

Certainly not every failure is sure to have been from the recall work, but there must also be failures that were not reported to this forum. It may not be possible to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, but it's as certain to me as it can be that the recall work has caused more failures than the actual valve springs.

Oh at this point I would say that not having it done is the safer bet. I have said all along that if I was impacted I just wouldn't do it based on the remote chance of spring failure. The guys in California have no choice but I think they are the only ones forced to do it.
With the new instructions we can hope that the repair failures drop off.

[msaikhan]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

There are 10 on the list that have covered it. We have no clue if Toyota or the dealer paid. Only 3 that have been refused outright. Of those one was modified and one a salvage title. What does it matter who paid as long as the owner didn’t have too anyway?

Dealer's paying for mine. (Engineers from Toyota oversaw the tear down and found oil pickup screen filled with sealant) GM told me toyota is not going to help with the cost of the repair.
Was not easy to get dealer admit fault though. I basically had to act like fking detective by keeping paper trail, secretly recording the test drive with master tech and the knocking noise. I also looked over the manual bunch of times, told them exactly where they didn't follow manual. Also told them "do not tear my engine apart without me being there". Made sure i took bunch of pictures once they tore apart my engine.
Basically, I collected as much info/evidence as possible and was ready to come back with a lawyer.

ANDD one thing that made the managers nervous was me asking for the Tech's credentials. You have to be engine expert or master tech to do recall but of course they wouldn't even tell me the name of the tech worked on my car. Service director straight up lied to me that he didn't know one of his OWN tech's name lol...

[Chimera]

Originally Posted by msaikhan

Dealer's paying for mine. (Engineers from Toyota oversaw the tear down and found oil pickup screen filled with sealant) GM told me toyota is not going to help with the cost of the repair.
Was not easy to get dealer admit fault though. I basically had to act like fking detective by keeping paper trail, secretly recording the test drive with master tech and the knocking noise. I also looked over the manual bunch of times, told them exactly where they didn't follow manual. Also told them "do not tear my engine apart without me being there". Made sure i took bunch of pictures once they tore apart my engine.
Basically, I collected as much info/evidence as possible and was ready to come back with a lawyer.

ANDD one thing that made the managers nervous was me asking for the Tech's credentials. You have to be engine expert or master tech to do recall but of course they wouldn't even tell me the name of the tech worked on my car. Service director straight up lied to me that he didn't know one of his OWN tech's name lol...

Wow, my dealer experience was WAY different. I met the master tech before hand, we talked about my car, my mods, the work, previous vehicles he had completed for this recall, any additional work to do while it was out, like the TOB, except i already had it done recently, he even asked me if my tuning was piggy backed or would care about a power reset. He even told me about how the FA20 wasn't his favorite engine, and why, but hey its a job right?