Resources for NA high performance engine builds?

[Tor]

Does anyone have links to any NA engine builds on here?


Some general questions:

How much is it possible to increase the bore on the FA20?

Any tips on what to go for in terms of donor engines? Would an engine that's thrown a crank bearing be a good candidate or something to avoid?

With what (general ballpark) costs should one calculate for components alone?

Would 250 crank hp be achievable on pump gas?

[-Phil]

Hey there,



As a rule of thumb we like to see a max overbore of 1mm. Obviously that is a very small change so there isn't much to be gained there.



As far as a donor goes look for a motor that had an issue with the heads but make sure the bottom end is perfect. its much cheaper to find a set of perfect heads by themselves.



Ballpark on components can be from 2500 for the lowest of low-end to 5000 being all the bells and whistles.



That HP level on pump seems too optimistic due to the amount of compression you will need to make it.

[Cole]

Originally Posted by Moto-Phil

Hey there,



As a rule of thumb we like to see a max overbore of 1mm. Obviously that is a very small change so there isn't much to be gained there.



As far as a donor goes look for a motor that had an issue with the heads but make sure the bottom end is perfect. its much cheaper to find a set of perfect heads by themselves.



Ballpark on components can be from 2500 for the lowest of low-end to 5000 being all the bells and whistles.



That HP level on pump seems too optimistic due to the amount of compression you will need to make it.

What power levels should you expect to see? If you went to E85, how much would that change things?

[ja1217]

Originally Posted by Moto-Phil

Hey there,



As a rule of thumb we like to see a max overbore of 1mm. Obviously that is a very small change so there isn't much to be gained there.



As far as a donor goes look for a motor that had an issue with the heads but make sure the bottom end is perfect. its much cheaper to find a set of perfect heads by themselves.



Ballpark on components can be from 2500 for the lowest of low-end to 5000 being all the bells and whistles.



That HP level on pump seems too optimistic due to the amount of compression you will need to make it.

So I have a question about doing an NA build that I've been wondering for a while. More extreme cams have been available for this platform for a while now from Piper, but I know that the stock piston to valve clearance is so minimal that there really isn't any room to upgrade the stock cams while keeping to stock pistons. So, if you want to go to a more extreme set of cams, I assume you need custom pistons with deeper valve notches? If so, is it possible to retain a high compression ratio or are the cams mainly aimed at people with boosted cars and lower compression ratios (which I assume would have more valve clearance than higher compression pistons)?

At some point in the not so distant future I would like to do an engine build of some sort. I'm competing in NASA's ST/TT4 class which has a power to weight ratio of 12 lbs per avg wheel hp and right now I'm at more like 13.3 making about 195whp avg (205 peak) and 2600lbs competition weight. I'm pretty much out of things to do to make the car lighter without spending obscene amounts of money for dry carbon replacement pieces so I would really like to be able to add like 20whp to the car. I feel like that should be possible to do with an NA build on E85 with some valvetrain work, cams, and a better intake manifold (the Jun one shows some promise for opening up higher RPM range). That being said, no one has been able to make much more than the 205whp that I currently make that I know of, or if they have they haven't shared their results yet. Just trying to figure out if making 220-230whp is feasible in an NA FA20.

[-Phil]

Originally Posted by Cole

What power levels should you expect to see? If you went to E85, how much would that change things?

I would say 220-225 with 13.1 compression with e85, ethanol is pretty much required due to the compression you are going to run. any compression above 13 is out of my knowledge on these motors.

[-Phil]

Originally Posted by ja1217

So I have a question about doing an NA build that I've been wondering for a while. More extreme cams have been available for this platform for a while now from Piper, but I know that the stock piston to valve clearance is so minimal that there really isn't any room to upgrade the stock cams while keeping to stock pistons. So, if you want to go to a more extreme set of cams, I assume you need custom pistons with deeper valve notches? If so, is it possible to retain a high compression ratio or are the cams mainly aimed at people with boosted cars and lower compression ratios (which I assume would have more valve clearance than higher compression pistons)?

At some point in the not so distant future I would like to do an engine build of some sort. I'm competing in NASA's ST/TT4 class which has a power to weight ratio of 12 lbs per avg wheel hp and right now I'm at more like 13.3 making about 195whp avg (205 peak) and 2600lbs competition weight. I'm pretty much out of things to do to make the car lighter without spending obscene amounts of money for dry carbon replacement pieces so I would really like to be able to add like 20whp to the car. I feel like that should be possible to do with an NA build on E85 with some valvetrain work, cams, and a better intake manifold (the Jun one shows some promise for opening up higher RPM range). That being said, no one has been able to make much more than the 205whp that I currently make that I know of, or if they have they haven't shared their results yet. Just trying to figure out if making 220-230whp is feasible in an NA FA20.

Hey there,

That's mostly correct when you do the cams you'll need to work somewhat closely with Carrillo ( my preferred company for custom pistons ) so that they may make it clear the valves and keep the size of the piston reliable.

you really are going to need a custom 13.1 compression piston/cams and most definitely and most importantly e85. @celek is doing a more extreme form of an N/a Build check him out.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Tor

Does anyone have links to any NA engine builds on here?


Some general questions:

How much is it possible to increase the bore on the FA20?

Any tips on what to go for in terms of donor engines? Would an engine that's thrown a crank bearing be a good candidate or something to avoid?

With what (general ballpark) costs should one calculate for components alone?

Would 250 crank hp be achievable on pump gas?

If you go with the average dyno for stock non 2017+ cars, they get about 165whp from 200hp. If you take that loss and apply it to 250hp, that's about 206whp.

You should be able to get almost there with an ACE header, full exhaust, good intake and a good tune. People have hit 199whp on california 91 with the ACE header, getting a couple more on 94 octane should be doable.

[CounterSpace Garage]

Originally Posted by wparsons

If you go with the average dyno for stock non 2017+ cars, they get about 165whp from 200hp. If you take that loss and apply it to 250hp, that's about 206whp.

You should be able to get almost there with an ACE header, full exhaust, good intake and a good tune. People have hit 199whp on california 91 with the ACE header, getting a couple more on 94 octane should be doable.

Has been done already on a roller (we got multiple dynos at various locations to play at any given time) by yours truly and has been tested at various tracks back to back. Engine still runs fine and numbers are still solid.

[whataboutbob]

Blue Moon Performance built me a forged internals and WPC coated motor that has been bulletproof. They have also built a number of NA and FI FA20 race motors for competition use as well as building a number of motors for professional race and drift teams. I'd shoot them an email and see what they suggest.

http://bluemoonperformance.com/

[Tokay444]

I'm holding out for 4Piston.com to start building long blocks for us. Or at the very least develop a killer head program. I can build my own short block.

[stevesnj]

Back in the day to tweak more HP out of an engine was to build a stroker. But the new modern engines (Japanese) are built to such tight tolerances and engineered to tight specs a stroker just may not be worth the cost. Saying that, and when we didn't have the money to stroke out a V8 we had other things done such as;

Head port and polish
Changed the intake to a higher flow
Larger carb to match the extra air going in. Holley double pumper
Auto trans was rebuilt with tight clutches, higher performance Torque Convertor, shift kit (to "chirp" second gear with), trans cooler and best fluid we could find
Rear gears went from 3.23 to 4.11 or 4.56 if you're brave enough
AC delete
Larger Radiator
Cooler thermostat
Headers and Borla Mufflers

Now a lot of that is still applicable to todays cars but the fuel air stuff probably won't be effective without telling the computer you're getting more fuel and air. For me I'm going to do a lot of these things over the next 1-4 years. That's the fun with these cars. Trying something different. Trial and error.

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by stevesnj

Back in the day to tweak more HP out of an engine was to build a stroker. But the new modern engines (Japanese) are built to such tight tolerances and engineered to tight specs a stroker just may not be worth the cost. Saying that, and when we didn't have the money to stroke out a V8 we had other things done such as;

Head port and polish
Changed the intake to a higher flow
Larger carb to match the extra air going in. Holley double pumper
Auto trans was rebuilt with tight clutches, higher performance Torque Convertor, shift kit (to "chirp" second gear with), trans cooler and best fluid we could find
Rear gears went from 3.23 to 4.11 or 4.56 if you're brave enough
AC delete
Larger Radiator
Cooler thermostat
Headers and Borla Mufflers

.................

Hey @stevesnj you're stealing MY thunder ......

(BTW, you forgot the high lift cam .....)


humfrz

[Spartarus]

@celek

so much @celek

[stevesnj]

Originally Posted by humfrz

(BTW, you forgot the high lift cam .....)

Oh yeh, I had a 66 327 with a solid cam and lifters. That thing loved to rev.