Motor Trend: 2016 Miata vs 2015 BRZ

[abraxis]

The cold hard truth about Porsche 911s. They were never designed as sports cars first but GT cars that were fast. They needed a trunk for cargo. The race car 911 doesn't need a truck so they use DW as does the 918 spyder.

I imagine Lotus likes the packaging for rear mounted transaxles, and it keeps with their philosophy of simplicity and lightness having lower unsprung mass and fewer parts.

In the end, all these cars are obviously shit because they don't have pushrod suspensions.

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling

1. kinda like how the FR-S & BRZ are advertised as having double wishbones in the rear but don't.

I thought the rear of the twins was advertised as multi-link. Many McPhearson strut cars (front) have multi-link/strut rear suspensions.

[abraxis]

Originally Posted by Rampage

I thought the rear of the twins was advertised as multi-link. Many McPhearson strut cars (front) have multi-link/strut rear suspensions.

Nah, they were advertised as DW early on. There was even a cultural debate about how Japan defines a DW versus the rest of the world.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Rampage

I thought the rear of the twins was advertised as multi-link. Many McPhearson strut cars (front) have multi-link/strut rear suspensions.

Originally Posted by abraxis

Nah, they were advertised as DW early on. There was even a cultural debate about how Japan defines a DW versus the rest of the world.

Early promotional materials claimed double wishbone rear and was updated to multi-link eventually:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...-scion-fr-s-1/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/18/au...irth.html?_r=0

http://www.autoblog.com/buy/2014-Sci...expert-review/

Edumunds article early on noted the discrepency:
http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/t...alkaround.html

Which in hindsight, maybe they did have double wishbone when they were headed to production and scrapped it at the last minute for a cheaper multilink lower arm setup and marketing didn't get the memo, there certainly is space in there for a lower single piece control arm with a slightly redesigned hub/upright...

[brzaapi]

Well, I went and test drove a new Miata (grand touring). Just for fun the wife and I also went and drove a C7 and a Camaro SS w/1LE package. It was a fun day.


The Miata, in my opinion is better than my older 2007 NC in just about every way. Power was better, braking was better. Interior, no contest. The interior has been greatly updated compared to my MX5. I had a little more headroom, I think my helmet would fit fine with top up. It is a pretty sticky little car except....the body roll. I don't remember my NC rolling that much before I put coilovers on it. But the body roll is actually comical. The wife and I were laughing(ok giggling) while cornering it was so bad. Despite the roll the car would still stick and turn well, but riding on bump stops in a medium to hard turn will be very common. With sways and better springs/coils I am sure this would change. Still, its quite strange (hence the giggling) to feel a car roll so bad and still turn very,very well.


It was a lot of fun to drive. I think it has great potential. Brian Goodwin (Goodwin Racing) is already modding the hell out of two ND Miatas, and he knows his stuff with those cars.
I would like to see what his new MX5 feels like with proper suspension upgrades. But stock for stock, I prefer the feel of driving a BRZ, despite the fact that the Miata is better on paper. However, since I am looking for a new track toy to play with the new Miata is on my radar.


In short, if you like Miata's....this is the best one yet. I always respect the Miata, its a great car. But I still prefer a BRZ. I miss not having one....but the new Boxster is fantastic. Its everything I wanted my BRZ to be, except more expensive. Oh well.

[brzaapi]

I will say. I was most impressed with the 1LE Camaro. I don't care for heavy cars. But that Camaro with 285s on all 4 corners had great driving behavior. Like the BRZ, it was easy to walk the tail out at the limit (good high limit too...very capable), and then a little correction and the car was stable. It sure didn't feel like 3900lbs. In fact I thought it cornered better than the Miata. I really thought I would hate the handling, but in stead came away impressed. It cornered better than a 2 ton car has any right to corner.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by brzaapi

I will say. I was most impressed with the 1LE Camaro. I don't care for heavy cars. But that Camaro with 285s on all 4 corners had great driving behavior. Like the BRZ, it was easy to walk the tail out at the limit (good high limit too...very capable), and then a little correction and the car was stable. It sure didn't feel like 3900lbs. In fact I thought it cornered better than the Miata. I really thought I would hate the handling, but in stead came away impressed. It cornered better than a 2 ton car has any right to corner.

Are you currently active on Miata and Camaro forums? The things you mentioned are the exact things my friend experienced with his 14 1LE he also has a Kraftwerks Supercharged Miata (NC3) (luckily his brother also has a 1LE and an NC Miata -06) and we all had variety of cars, modified and tracked many of them so we have some good data for benchmark

His 1LE is typically a Z28 now (except 10-20 hp difference) after he added Z28 full suspension (spool valve struts, control arms, bushings, roll bars), full Z28 Aero, Z28 tire wheel combo, Recaro seats... (and bunch of other stuff) if you didn't drive the 1LE with something other than the stock G2 tires you'd be surprised how it would feel

[juliog]

Another MX-5 vs 86 comparo from across the pond:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1536660

But which is the better car? In simple terms the Mazda is more fun and the achievement in building a modern car with all the safety paraphernalia demanded by current legislation to such a minimal weight deserves huge credit. The wind in the hair aspect helps pluck the heartstrings too and if you want even an everyday drive to become an experience it's all there.

Out of the box the Toyota is the better driver's car though. The MX-5 is a few subtle tweaks away from brilliance in this regard and there's no doubt some simple fettling could unlock its potential. But on this showing the GT86 is more focused, balanced and rewarding to drive.

Whichever appeals most is not the most important thing here though. For all those moans about modern performance cars we should be glad at least these two are keeping it real.

[brzaapi]

Originally Posted by glamcem

Are you currently active on Miata and Camaro forums? The things you mentioned are the exact things my friend experienced with his 14 1LE

I am on Miata.net. I have not signed on to Camaro5 as of yet. But since I am possibly seeing a 1LE in my future, it is likely I will shortly. That being said I have been scouring that forum for 6 weeks now. A good forum, good community and good info. I wish other car forums were as structured as FT86club and Camaro5.


I have owned/tracked Miatas, BRZs and some used P-cars. I still would love to enjoy an S2000, but I thought it was time I would add American muscle to my list of experiences. I see each car I own, as a class/lesson that I enroll in and take for a year or two. I research the car. I mod the car. I maintain the car, and ultimately learn to drive the car fast within my abilities. I got a pretty good grip on how to drive lightweight momentum cars. So powerful and heavy were on my list of skills/experience that I want.


I started with an 03 ZO6. Great car, but in the end I didn't enjoy it on the AX as much( loved it on a weekend drive though). I was going to track it more often, but the vette had some serious heat issues and I got rid of it before I had the chance to address those issues. So I am still looking for the right muscle car. I drove a 13 Mustang GT and a new 15 GT. Fun cars, but i was underwhelmed with driving behavior. Then i made my way over to an S2000. Well, of course i liked it. Its the perfect momentum car. But I am trying to get out of my comfort zone. So, last but not least was the 1LE........... I have found my muscle car.


I am in the hunt for one. I am reading all that i can while i shop for a good deal. That being said the wife and I share our Boxster. We use it exclusively for AX and track days. Its fantastic, but I always miss not having a car I can actually turn wrenches. The P-cars are just not as
accessible for obvious reasons.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by brzaapi

I am on Miata.net. I have not signed on to Camaro5 as of yet. But since I am possibly seeing a 1LE in my future, it is likely I will shortly. That being said I have been scouring that forum for 6 weeks now. A good forum, good community and good info. I wish other car forums were as structured as FT86club and Camaro5.


I have owned/tracked Miatas, BRZs and some used P-cars. I still would love to enjoy an S2000, but I thought it was time I would add American muscle to my list of experiences. I see each car I own, as a class/lesson that I enroll in and take for a year or two. I research the car. I mod the car. I maintain the car, and ultimately learn to drive the car fast within my abilities. I got a pretty good grip on how to drive lightweight momentum cars. So powerful and heavy were on my list of skills/experience that I want.


I started with an 03 ZO6. Great car, but in the end I didn't enjoy it on the AX as much( loved it on a weekend drive though). I was going to track it more often, but the vette had some serious heat issues and I got rid of it before I had the chance to address those issues. So I am still looking for the right muscle car. I drove a 13 Mustang GT and a new 15 GT. Fun cars, but i was underwhelmed with driving behavior. Then i made my way over to an S2000. Well, of course i liked it. Its the perfect momentum car. But I am trying to get out of my comfort zone. So, last but not least was the 1LE........... I have found my muscle car.


I am in the hunt for one. I am reading all that i can while i shop for a good deal. That being said the wife and I share our Boxster. We use it exclusively for AX and track days. Its fantastic, but I always miss not having a car I can actually turn wrenches. The P-cars are just not as
accessible for obvious reasons.

wow, it seems like our we both surprisingly owned and considered very similar cars, including BRZ, Miata, Vettes.. I also considered an S2000 at some point but wasn't really impressed with the ergonomics (great shifter and motor though) and Cayman on the same day but didn't test drive the Cayman just sat in it.. Did you always Auto-X or you also used those cars for HPDEs as well? I didn't attend any Auto-X so far since track events seem more appealing to me

if you're looking for one I'd say go for it he had some really good experience with the 1LE, the new 2016 Camaro with its magneride may also be a good alternative too, why did you end up selling the BRZ?

[brzaapi]

Originally Posted by glamcem

wow, it seems like our we both surprisingly owned and considered very similar cars, including BRZ, Miata, Vettes.. I also considered an S2000 at some point but wasn't really impressed with the ergonomics (great shifter and motor though) and Cayman on the same day but didn't test drive the Cayman just sat in it.. Did you always Auto-X or you also used those cars for HPDEs as well? I didn't attend any Auto-X so far since track events seem more appealing to me

if you're looking for one I'd say go for it he had some really good experience with the 1LE, the new 2016 Camaro with its magneride may also be a good alternative too, why did you end up selling the BRZ?

I have owned and built a few others, but they never saw real track time. The Miata was AX only. The BRZ has seen AX and track. The 09 Cayman and 15 Boxster both have seen AX and Track. The Vette only saw AX, I really didn't enjoy the disconnect feeling of the handling. The front would move first in a turn, then the ass would follow, and then the front would change again because of how the back settled. It seemed like there was delay in how the car communicated itself to me. Plus the Vette would have overheated on a serious lap session on a track. I was pushing 280 oil temp while AXing.


I do AX. Mainly cause I do it at least once a month, sometimes two. I really only do it with my local Porsche club or Bimmer club. It only takes about 3 to 4 hours for 8 total runs, plus 2 fun runs. I like the people as well and we all look forward to getting together. AX, is where I play with my car and learn a lot. So that my track days are more productive. But our AX course is not just a sea of cones. It is a closed dual loop course, with a giant tarmac in the middle that we use differently every time we are out there. So our AX course is hybrid of parking lot/cones and a small 1.1 mile track. We are lucky. I only track 2-4 times a year. I AX about 10+. I haven't been to an SCCA AX in a while. They are not near as fun as my local PCA and BMW groups.


As for cars. I am really pulled between the S2000 and 1LE. I wish the driving position was better on the 1LE. Plus I mainly use the Boxster on track days. My thinking was that my toy car would be more AX focused, but if I have the 1LE...I will want to track it too. Oh well, not a bad problem to have.

[WolfpackS2k]

My recommendation is to get an S2000. They're a limited commodity and clean well maintained examples will become more and more difficult to find as time goes by. The Camaro 1LE is a recent production model and shouldn't be difficult to find for the next 5-10 years.

[brzaapi]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

My recommendation is to get an S2000. They're a limited commodity and clean well maintained examples will become more and more difficult to find as time goes by. The Camaro 1LE is a recent production model and shouldn't be difficult to find for the next 5-10 years.

That has been my thinking as well. The 16+ Camaro is only going to be lighter more powerful with a lower hood cowl, so better front visibility. IN a couple of years I could look at one of those, and if I still like the 1LE better...then great, the prices are only going to drop further.


Where as the S2000 is a limited and slowly dwindling commodity. I may be making a road trip this weekend to drive a few S2000s.

[glamcem]

yeah the only thing with S2K and Miata is that they're not "cars", they're "toys" like Carlos Lago mentioned in his previous Miata vs FRS review @Motor Trend



one thing about 1LE, they're only made to order so there aren't as many 1LEs at the dealership lots unless someone ordered and cancelled after that, I know from a first hand experience also, my friend ordered one and the dealership told him on the arrival they're no longer interested on selling the car for the agreed price and added their mark up.. (a..hats) he ended up finding a slightly used 14 and

this is his build thread if interested
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=375406

also @brzaapi the problems you experienced with the C5Z, to my understanding, been resolved when people go with SQ setup and changed the rear bushings, overheating was an issue with C5Z I believe, that might be the reason why I had to change the stupid yellow valve springs after I broke one (luckily not when revving up )