KPower Industries K24 swap

[Swift]

Wouldn't it be cheaper to reuse our original trans with beefed up gearing? Some of us could do the work ourselves if we knew where to get better parts.



If starter location is an issue there are different "k" engines.


Also, to further make things less expensive , couldn't a piggybacked Hondata ECU be used just for the engine with splices for sensors on trans maybe and the stock ECU for the basics??

[Ebush]

Originally Posted by Swift

Wouldn't it be cheaper to reuse our original trans with beefed up gearing? Some of us could do the work ourselves if we knew where to get better parts.



If starter location is an issue there are different "k" engines.


Also, to further make things less expensive , couldn't a piggybacked Hondata ECU be used just for the engine with splices for sensors on trans maybe and the stock ECU for the basics??

The kit does use the stock trans. Kpro is right at $1000 last I checked, and the Haltech is $1400 and is able to control everything. Could maybe get a used kpro for cheaper but still it’s not that big of a price difference. I think this swap should be doable for 9-10k with a stock k24a2 and the KMiata header and intake.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Swift

Wouldn't it be cheaper to reuse our original trans with beefed up gearing? Some of us could do the work ourselves if we knew where to get better parts.

If starter location is an issue there are different "k" engines.

Also, to further make things less expensive , couldn't a piggybacked Hondata ECU be used just for the engine with splices for sensors on trans maybe and the stock ECU for the basics??

This isn't a new question. Unfortunately, most people aren't going to do a transmission build themselves, no different that an engine build. The cost to do a transmission build with syncro upgrades and dog gears has been tried, but for most people, this just isn't worth the gains. Most would rather do a CD009 swap for about the same price as paying for the parts and labor on a transmission build. Most lower powered FI cars and NA cars who are going through transmissions are just buying used transmissions for $500. People have just done 4th gear for cheaper, but check out the prices on gearsets to compare to the Mazworks CD009 swap:

https://www.jackstransmissions.com/t...romesh-gearset

https://www.par-engineering.com/prod...ion-fr-s-copy/

https://www.mazworx.com/mazworx-favq...t-frs/brz.aspx

It appears they are working on something. I don't know how much cheaper this option will be, or what features might be lost.

Will I be able to pass emissions with this swap?

That depends on the specific laws of your region. Since the standalone Haltech EMS may pose challenges for some customers, we’ll be working on an additional option to run these cars on stock ECUs as well.

https://kpower.industries/blogs/news...ft86-swap-faqs

[PulsarBeeerz]

A dirty over-lay of an FBO FA20 with HKS EL headers (thin red line) and Borla UEL headers (thin blue line) vs FBO K24a2 (thick blue line) with 50° VTC gear and Type-S Oil pump. Separate Dynos!! Both Dynojets with STD correct and cars running pump gas. Overall trends are more important than raw numbers of course. Again this is just showing estimated differences.

[Goingnowherefast]

Another benefit here is that you can get a K24 w/ oil pump to rev out much further than the FA20. Using the same transmission, and rear end, this will mean you can achieve a higher speed in each gear. That will likely open up the ability to run a numerically higher FD for some.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I've never seen a 13-16 BRZ weigh in above 2800 lbs unless it was an automatic. Actually I've never seen a 2017+ that heavy either. Most bone stock FRS's and even BRZ's I've seen come in under 2750. If you believe their numbers, that's fine, I just think it's a little odd.

Also worth is definitely relative/subjective, no doubt about that! But here's the thing, I don't think I'm alone in my perspective. It's probably going to be $7-10k for the swap (just guessing, pricing hasn't been released yet) to gain maybe 20-30 whp over a FBO E85 FA20. Not saying that's not a significant bump in power, but compared to the cost and issues that come with swaps, it's a tough sell unless you're talking about a blown FA20 situation. Again just my opinion.



On their FB page, they're pushing this swap pretty hard and I get that from a business perspective. But there's no point making comparisons that aren't apples-to-apples. If they're talking about a FBO K20/24 on E85 making 240 whp, then compare that to a FBO FA20 on E85 making 210 whp and you get a 30 whp difference. Or if they're talking about bone stock K24a2 making 170-180 whp, then compare that to a bone stock FA20 making 165-175 whp for a 5 whp difference.

Saying a stock K24 will make 75 whp over a stock FA20, I don't think there's any legitimate apples-to-apples math that gets you there (or anywhere close really).

The merits of the swap are valid enough to stand on their own. No need to play loose with the numbers. That's all I'm getting at.

An internally stock K24 with intake manifold (required for RWD unless you want the TB facing the firewall), header, and tune will make around 230whp on pump gas easily. 75whp over an FA20 is an exaggeration stock vs stock, but if you look at the cost to make 230whp N/A on an FA20 the swap starts looking really good, especially when you factor in how easy it is to hit ~260whp on pump gas with a K24.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by wparsons

An internally stock K24 with intake manifold (required for RWD unless you want the TB facing the firewall), header, and tune will make around 230whp on pump gas easily. 75whp over an FA20 is an exaggeration stock vs stock, but if you look at the cost to make 230whp N/A on an FA20 the swap starts looking really good, especially when you factor in how easy it is to hit ~260whp on pump gas with a K24.

My point still stands, it’s probably a 25-30 whp gain in a true apples to apples comparison, not 75. That’s a huge difference and doesn’t really make me want to trust this company when they “exaggerate” like that.

I’ll revisit this topic if I ever manage to blow my FA20 up, but right now it’s still running pretty strong through all the abuse I’ve thrown its way.

[PulsarBeeerz]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

My point still stands, it’s probably a 25-30 whp gain in a true apples to apples comparison, not 75. That’s a huge difference and doesn’t really make me want to trust this company when they “exaggerate” like that.

I’ll revisit this topic if I ever manage to blow my FA20 up, but right now it’s still running pretty strong through all the abuse I’ve thrown its way.

I know my overlay isn't the most legible, but did you notice the 45-20lbft of torque everywhere and extra 1000 rpm in what you want to consider as an apples to apples comparison? Both using pump gas instead of trying to boost FA20 numbers with E85. That's a huge difference before getting into weight loss, added reliability and much better HP potential to cost ratio.

[Icecreamtruk]

I think people are trying to argue for the sake of arguing here. In an "apples to apples" comparison, you should compare what a stock block + bolt-ons and possible cams or whatever other things you can do to add power to a k24 vs a bolt-on plus tune on the FA20, on the same gas (no gas pump on the k24 then corn juice on the fa20, duh).

I see the comments already about how this is not apples to apples, but it is, you know why? Because there isnt anything else you can do to the FA20 to actually increase its power, without opening the block. So it should compare a basic but close to maxed out stock block (unopened) fa20 vs the same k24, the difference will be between 40-60whp for sure, easy, any day.

I honestly dont believe this is a great swap for a street car, except for those that want the engine for other reasons (rev higher, sound, honda fanboy, easy replacement motors for boost junkies, etc..). I believe a boosted fa20 suits that easier. I believe this is a swap for the track minded people. The weight difference, a bit over 100lbs, will be even higher when you compare a NA k24 to a boosted fa20 (yes piping has weight, intercoolers dont float, turbines are heavy). Less weight of the nose (in front of the front axle) is huge in handling.

For that same reason, I also believe some people arent looking at the graph right, you dont compare power to power at any given rpm, or peak numbers to peak numbers, you compare area under the curve for the gearing you are running. With the stock transmission, that means looking at the last 2000 rpms on the rev band. Take the posted above graph, draw two lines between max rpm and 2000rpm less than that for both curves, and compare the area under there. While 40hp is only around a 20%, there will probably more than a 20% difference between those areas.

So I believe there is a place for this swap for sure, people calling it pointless are not looking at the whole picture, or any picture besides what their case use.

PS: no, im not doing a kswap, I was already in the process of swapping an LS when this popped. Had it been available back then I might have done this instead.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

I know my overlay isn't the most legible, but did you notice the 45-20lbft of torque everywhere and extra 1000 rpm in what you want to consider as an apples to apples comparison? Both using pump gas instead of trying to boost FA20 numbers with E85. That's a huge difference before getting into weight loss, added reliability and much better HP potential to cost ratio.

I dont know why you’re stating 45 lbs-ft when that’s not what they said. It doesn’t make 75 whp over the fa20 at any point in your overlay.

Also I’ve only compared apples to apples, so it’s 91 vs 91 or e85 vs e85. Depending on your access to fuel type, you may be more interested in one result vs another.

Anyway i get the enthusiasm from the company in marketing their product and even in forum members wanting to purchase their product. I’m glad the swap exists for options if my fa20 ever dies. The benefits of the swap are obvious, but I value facts over exaggeration.

[PulsarBeeerz]

Yesh..


Anyway here's a bone stock FRS vs their swapped BRZ. 159whp vs 229whp, still not 75 tho right? Edit: I take it back, check out the difference at 7200rpm on..

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz

Yesh..


Anyway here's a bone stock FRS vs their swapped BRZ. 159whp vs 229whp, still not 75 tho right? Edit: I take it back, check out the difference at 7200rpm on..

LOL I'm not even going to bother with this one for obvious reasons.

You're not going to find 75 whp in any legit meaningful comparison. I think the point has been made (and beaten to death by this point), so I'll just leave it at that. I think this thread is better saved for discussing other aspects of the swap.

[Ebush]

I love how everyone’s mad that Kpower claimed 75whp gain, but last year when Pure claimed that their swap saved 500 pounds no one seemed to question it. I think the shop that kpower took their brz to for the dyno probably told them a stock 86 makes 150whp on their dyno. Therefore the brz made over 75whp more than a stock brz, and their k24a2 is as stock as it can get in a rwd platform.

[Tomm]

I think it also comes down to responsiveness to bolts ons. The K series motors respond incredibly well to i/im/h/e. The FA20 is an awesome platform but doesn't respond as well to bolt-ons. So this kit comes with all of that and then add a cam gear and a tune... I don't know how much of difference the cam gear made but I'm willing to bet most of the power difference between the factory K24A2 and those dyno results are from all the bolt ons and tune. If you look at clubrsx, honda-tech or k20a - the NA crowds over there are strong. There are a lot of folks with bolt ons that are running 220/180 numbers with just i/h/e and no tune on a jdm K20A and 205-210whp on K20A2s with i/h/e and tune. It is not surprising to me to see a K24 with i/im/h/e, tune, and vtc gear pushing 229.

It's natural for people to get a little triggered when the FA20 starts gettin some shade. But when it comes down to the empirical data, the K24A2/A3 is superior (in many aspects that are already covered). I said what I said. The reason for swapping is subjective and why someone throws money at their car a particular way shouldn't be a point of contention. Do you.

Also, if you don't like the idea of a k swapped 86 then this thread isn't for you.