Harrop TVS86 Owners Thread

[armstrom]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Remember that there's a big time zone difference

Yeah, not something that was lost on me However, they only list a sales contact, not service. I think they may prefer that people obtain service through dealers since there's a dealer portal login.

Either way, I've managed to suss it out. The sensor appears to be this one: http://aemelectronics.com/files/inst...nsor%20Kit.pdf

It conforms to the standard GM/Delco IAT specs. To that end, I found that COBB have published a IAT scaling map for the impreza to use a GM sensor. After breaking out my meter I determined our ecu has the same 1k pull-up resistor and ~4.75V sense voltage as the impreza. The COBB map even uses the same voltages in the cells as the stock BRZ IAT scale map. You can find the mapping here (along with some other helpful scaling calculators)

Hopefully others find this useful.

0.204999998	120
0.361000001	120
0.518000007	113
0.674000025	102
0.829999983	93
0.986000001	86
1.143000007	80
1.299000025	76
1.455000043	72
1.610999942	67
1.768000007	63
1.924000025	60
2.079999924	56
2.236000061	53
2.392999888	49
2.549000025	45
2.704999924	41
2.861000061	38
3.017999888	34
3.174000025	31
3.329999924	28
3.486000061	24
3.642999888	21
3.799000025	18
3.954999924	13
4.111000061	8
4.268000126	1
4.423999786	-8
4.579999924	-23
4.736000061	-40

-Matt

[johan]

Originally Posted by armstrom

Hopefully others find this useful. It turns out Delicious Tuning wasn't aware that Harrop re-routed the IAT signal to a sensor mounted after the intercooler so the Flash-and-Go tune was not correcting for charge temp (it assumed the IAT was pre-blower temp from the MAF). I'll be supplying my scaling to them.

How is that even possible???!?!

That figuratively blows my mind. How could you not analyze a boost setup before tuning it... I just... wow.

[armstrom]

Originally Posted by johan

How is that even possible???!?!

That figuratively blows my mind. How could you not analyze a boost setup before tuning it... I just... wow.

I don't think that's a fair assessment. Keep in mind when you tune with them you're paying for a tuning process. They don't just throw some standard tune at you and tell you to have a good day. They have tuned hundreds of 86's in dozens of configurations. How many Harrop cars have they tuned? I don't know, but as a fraction of the total, probably not too many yet, just because there aren't that may kits installed compared to other FI solutions. I think it's also a testament to the quality of the Flash-and-go tunes that they can tolerate such wide variations and still run safely and smoothly. The flash-and-go really is the best option for the Harrop kit, hands down.

I mean, think about it critically... Delicious has released many revisions to the flash-and-go tunes over the years. They incorporate new findings, new ideas, new results and improve things going forward. That's how I WANT my tuner to operate. If you bought rev 1 of the tune should you be all up in arms that it wasn't "100% perfect" straight out of the box? Just because something can be improved doesn't mean it was "BAD" to start with. My car runs beautifully and smoothly and has done so for months on a delicious tune. Will this new information help improve it? Maybe a little... was it "bad" or "broken" before? Hardly!

My comments were not meant as a ding against Delicious as they have been amazing to work with and Zach has been super patient with all of my questions I'm going to edit my comment to remove that section. I was simply trying to share the information I found and I don't need to go into extra detail to do that.
-Matt

[Kodename47]

@armstrom that is a different IAT scale to what I have seen on a Harrop tuned car. Has that scale been confirmed by Harrop as I suspect the one I've seen has?

[armstrom]

Originally Posted by Kodename47

@armstrom that is a different IAT scale to what I have seen on a Harrop tuned car. Has that scale been confirmed by Harrop as I suspect the one I've seen has?

No, can you share the scale you've seen? I could not find any documentation from Harrop at all on the type of sensor or scaling so I found the sensor model myself from image searching and connector part numbers. Once I determined that conformed to the GM/Denso standard I found the scaling you see in my post from a COBB accessport impreza tuning. I verified the pull-up resistor and supply voltage were the same to the mapping should be valid.

I would be very interested in seeing the "official" scaling from Harrop though.

-Matt

[Kodename47]

Originally Posted by armstrom

No, can you share the scale you've seen?

It's not my tune, so I can't. I also don't want to suggest it's the correct one but they are the main UK importers of the Harrop. The shape is similar and different to OEM so it won't be far off either way.

[armstrom]

Originally Posted by Kodename47

It's not my tune, so I can't. I also don't want to suggest it's the correct one but they are the main UK importers of the Harrop. The shape is similar and different to OEM so it won't be far off either way.

Understood, if it's not your work to share then better safe than sorry. Is the curve just different? Keep in mind that you can achieve the same scaling with an infinite number of different samples. In the case of the numbers I posted they retain the stock voltage levels and simply re-sample new corresponding temperatures (other than the odd plateau at 120 deg, which was copied from stock). I prefer to create maps like this the other way around, start from the dependent variable (Temperature) and select values you want and compute the voltage for. That gives you the flexibility to add more data points in the areas where you are likely to spend most of your time. My car isn't likely to see IATs in the -40 C range too often But being forced induction I probably want some extra resolution on the high-side of ambient (>30 deg up to 70 deg or so).

I produced a spreadsheet that will allow you to calculate an IAT scaling map from any sensor and at temperature values of your choosing. When I do that I also come up with a slightly different curve than the one I posted above. However, my scaling is based purely on nominal sensor specs and measurements on my own car (Vsense and Rpull-up) so I figured I would go with the scaling from a proper tuner

I've attached the spreadsheet in case anyone finds it useful. Standard disclaimer, I'm not a tuner and you should verify any calculated values with testing on a real sensor, etc etc... if you blow anything up with values from my spreadsheet you're on your own and so forth If nothing else you can look at the equations in the spreadsheet to see how to do linear interpolation in Excel
-Matt

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by armstrom

Yeah, not something that was lost on me However, they only list a sales contact, not service. I think they may prefer that people obtain service through dealers since there's a dealer portal login.

Either way, I've managed to suss it out. The sensor appears to be this one: http://aemelectronics.com/files/inst...nsor%20Kit.pdf

It conforms to the standard GM/Delco IAT specs. To that end, I found that COBB have published a IAT scaling map for the impreza to use a GM sensor. After breaking out my meter I determined our ecu has the same 1k pull-up resistor and ~4.75V sense voltage as the impreza. The COBB map even uses the same voltages in the cells as the stock BRZ IAT scale map. You can find the mapping here (along with some other helpful scaling calculators)

Hopefully others find this useful.

0.204999998	120
0.361000001	120
0.518000007	113
0.674000025	102
0.829999983	93
0.986000001	86
1.143000007	80
1.299000025	76
1.455000043	72
1.610999942	67
1.768000007	63
1.924000025	60
2.079999924	56
2.236000061	53
2.392999888	49
2.549000025	45
2.704999924	41
2.861000061	38
3.017999888	34
3.174000025	31
3.329999924	28
3.486000061	24
3.642999888	21
3.799000025	18
3.954999924	13
4.111000061	8
4.268000126	1
4.423999786	-8
4.579999924	-23
4.736000061	-40

-Matt

I love stuff like this. Thanks for making it available!

[G-Unit86]

I'm wondering has anyone put a stroker kit on their car with this setup?

Harrop ran there car with the HKS stoker kit which runs $4482.00 USD with cams and can give you a compression ratio of 11.4:1 while the Greddy kit cost significantly more at $6157.00 USD without cams and gives you a compression ratio of 9.5:1

Does anyone know why the big difference in cost?

Is it even worth a going with a stroker kit? From what I sourced out engine internals are going to run you similar to the HKS kit.

Thanks

[weederr33]

Originally Posted by G-Unit86

I'm wondering has anyone put a stroker kit on their car with this setup?

Harrop ran there car with the HKS stoker kit which runs $4482.00 USD with cams and can give you a compression ratio of 11.4:1 while the Greddy kit cost significantly more at $6157.00 USD without cams and gives you a compression ratio of 9.5:1

Does anyone know why the big difference in cost?

Is it even worth a going with a stroker kit? From what I sourced out engine internals are going to run you similar to the HKS kit.

Thanks

I believe the greedy has forged pistons and rods. The hks does not have forged rods. But they are rated for 500 hp.

[G-Unit86]

Originally Posted by weederr33

I believe the greedy has forged pistons and rods. The hks does not have forged rods. But they are rated for 500 hp.

So straight from HKS website

"POINT-1:PISTON KIT
Carefully selected specially forged raw materials used
POINT-2:CONNECTING ROD
High strength I beam design and revised connecting rod bolt size.
POINT-3:CRANKSHAFT STROKE 90.0mm
Made from HKS special forged material."

https://www.hks-power.co.jp/en/produ...city/fa20.html

The only thing I can tell is HKs uses I-Beam rods like Manely, while Greddy uses H-beam like Carillo

[Blood]

Originally Posted by armstrom

No, can you share the scale you've seen? I could not find any documentation from Harrop at all on the type of sensor or scaling so I found the sensor model myself from image searching and connector part numbers. Once I determined that conformed to the GM/Denso standard I found the scaling you see in my post from a COBB accessport impreza tuning. I verified the pull-up resistor and supply voltage were the same to the mapping should be valid.

I would be very interested in seeing the "official" scaling from Harrop though.

-Matt

I don't have the email anymore unfortunately, but their sales guys provided me with the IAT sensor scaling within a day or two of asking.

[PhyrraM]

Ordered mine today from Niel@The Racers Line along with EcuTek, Delicious tunes and the E85 kit. Now the waiting begins.....

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by PhyrraM

Ordered mine today from Niel@The Racers Line along with EcuTek, Delicious tunes and the E85 kit. Now the waiting begins.....

Any plans to build the motor? What are your power goals?