GT86 Collectors Car?

[vividracing]

Originally Posted by humfrz

Well, it's hard to tell .....

I remember, back in the day (about 1953/54), my uncle owned a Chevrolet dealership. He had this white, 1953 Corvette, with red interior, sitting all alone on his lot.

He couldn't "give them away", ..... so he said.

My father wouldn't have any part of the little, plastic, cobbled together car.

Yep, it was a small, light, nimble, rear wheel drive, underpowered car.

The one below was sold by Barrett-Jackson last year for $660,000.

Just sayen .....


humfrz

And why does such a car have such a great selling price? More than just rarity, it's desirability. What I think contributes to the value of a collector car is how many cars in that same line have been sold after it. You look at Corvette, and it didn't really do that well its first years in production (like the BRZ/FRS). They didn't make many of them either!

First year was only 300, second year only 3,640. 700 in '55, 3,467 in '56, and it increased to about 14,500 in '62. How many Corvettes are sold these days? About 40,000 a year. Multiply that by the decades before, and you got a million of em or so. You have lots of people with Corvettes which means you have a lot of fans, and even if only 1% are fanatical enough to buy a later model Corvette or a classic, that's still a thousand of em, then you include general car collectors who see the value of RARITY multiplied by decades, and you have a very rare car that drives up the price.

The BRZ can see the same thing too I think, depends on if it keeps going for another 20-30 years. Like I said in my first post, my car is only one of about 180 examples ever made, and one of just 129 for 2013. The first model year Corvette was 300 made.

You hear about how old Camaros from the same year selling for $50,000 vs $500,000 in auction. What's the difference? Rarity. Options, dealer added limited editions, etc. A BRZ with 6000 cars made in 2013 doesn't seem rare, but the options (Limited, Automatic, Galaxy Blue), can make it valuable. A Silver, White, or Black Premium BRZ in Manual is the most common.

[FRSupra]

Even if I was wealthy, I'm not sure I'd be able to keep a car as a "collectible". Cars are meant to be driven, that's what they're built for. If I was gifted with lets say, an early mint condition NSX from it's original owner and I put it in a garage to sit with other cars, it would weigh so hard on mind ever second of every day that I was not driving it. Why do we especially love performance cars? I might as well have the same NSX with nothing in its engine bay.

With that being said, I'm also fanatical about original OEM condition. Seeing a car you loved as a child in such a condition that it seemed to roll off the assembly line yesterday is incredibly captivating. For example, cars of the 90's have their own "aura" if you will. The way the plastics feel, the smell of the cars, things like this capture the decade. Every time I'm at a car show and I happen upon a car like this, you could swear my expression was of a 5 year old.

Value of cars is a blurry subject. A few posts above someone mentioned the definition of a collector car is one that gets "collected" to be stored. In more cases than none, this will be a better way to find these "time capsules", because our cars are meant to be driven, and I completely agree with it. Enter someone like myself who desires this car because it is so close to having one of these 90's type cars, brand new, never owned. I realize I love this car because of what it was designed to do, so I'm going to drive it, but I also try to take extremely good care of it. If done right, you can drive and enjoy a car while still having it look like new, even years down the road regardless of mileage. The wonderful thing about cars today, (and another reason why I'm such a Toyota fan) is that they are reliable and can hold up to time better than cars have before.

15 years from now, I would have no problem shelling out decent cash for an FR-S that was well maintained from it's original owner even if the odometer was well into 100k. From a mass market perspective, at this point no it's not looking well for value overall, but for someone like myself it can make a difference for sellers. For example lets says I had 10k in the bank and was in the market for an MR2. Relatively good cars go for 5k, but I would have no problem paying 7k because it's worth more than that to me.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by FRSupra

Even if I was wealthy, I'm not sure I'd be able to keep a car as a "collectible". Cars are meant to be driven, that's what they're built for. If I was gifted with lets say, an early mint condition NSX from it's original owner and I put it in a garage to sit with other cars, it would weigh so hard on mind ever second of every day that I was not driving it. Why do we especially love performance cars? I might as well have the same NSX with nothing in its engine bay.

With that being said, I'm also fanatical about original OEM condition. Seeing a car you loved as a child in such a condition that it seemed to roll off the assembly line yesterday is incredibly captivating. For example, cars of the 90's have their own "aura" if you will. The way the plastics feel, the smell of the cars, things like this capture the decade. Every time I'm at a car show and I happen upon a car like this, you could swear my expression was of a 5 year old.

Value of cars is a blurry subject. A few posts above someone mentioned the definition of a collector car is one that gets "collected" to be stored. In more cases than none, this will be a better way to find these "time capsules", because our cars are meant to be driven, and I completely agree with it. Enter someone like myself who desires this car because it is so close to having one of these 90's type cars, brand new, never owned. I realize I love this car because of what it was designed to do, so I'm going to drive it, but I also try to take extremely good care of it. If done right, you can drive and enjoy a car while still having it look like new, even years down the road regardless of mileage. The wonderful thing about cars today, (and another reason why I'm such a Toyota fan) is that they are reliable and can hold up to time better than cars have before.

15 years from now, I would have no problem shelling out decent cash for an FR-S that was well maintained from it's original owner even if the odometer was well into 100k. From a mass market perspective, at this point no it's not looking well for value overall, but for someone like myself it can make a difference for sellers. For example lets says I had 10k in the bank and was in the market for an MR2. Relatively good cars go for 5k, but I would have no problem paying 7k because it's worth more than that to me.

Great write up!
It can sometimes be difficult to distinguish the difference between a driving enthusiast and a car enthusiast because we here generally seem to be a bit of both. I am with FR in the fact I would suck as a true collector because I would want to drive the cars I had not just let them sit there. Jay Leno is famous for his collection and although he does have his driver cars I recall an interview where he said that many (most?) of them have under 100 miles on the clock. He was very clear that he does not drive them but considers them more as pieces of art to be admired but not used.
The other thing that FR brings forward is the whole concept of what car is worthy of being considered a collector car in the first place. This is so incredibly complex and dependent upon generation, personal nostalgia, pop culture, availability, automotive mythos, etc, etc that I doubt we could get more than 10% of the people here to agree on the top 20 list of what is collectable. Although I understand at an intellectual level that cars from the 90s could be collectable I totally miss the boat on and emotional level. To me they are all just "new" cars and no matter how great they may be I can not connect with a single one of them at a level where I would want to own it just to look at. The same applies to cars prior to the late 50s except in their case they are just "old" cars. My background, nostalgia, car history, etc really only leaves me room to emotionally recognize cars from the late 50s to mid 70s as potential collector vehicles. Do I love my FRS? Yes for sure. Can I be emotionally attached to it enough to picture it as a collector car in 30 years? Not a hope, since to me (and probably to others in my demographic) it is just a new car. The people that will want one of these in 30 years are the guys that had to give it up due to growing families or such other influences or the guys that wanted one now and just could not do it.
A lot has been said about how the old 'Vettes, Camaros and other rarer Pony cars are so valuable now but their example really does not carry over to today. Back from the late 50s to mid 70s we had all the Baby Boomers that wanted these cars and just could not have them since they were rare even when new and there was just so many people in that group there were not enough to go around so we had to wait for 30+ years to be able to pick one up. This no longer applies in this age. The Twins are made in numbers that more than meet the current demand and the main target demographic is much, much smaller so there should be an ample supply of reasonably priced, good condition ones around in the future.

[5thGenOwner]

I believe the car I almost got instead of my Camaro can be considered a collector (Solstice coupe, see below). Good luck finding one now.

I think the twins definitely have the potential, but only time will tell.

[donoman]

This car will be quite the opposite. It is the whore of the JDM field right now. I expect it will spawn a new class of Spec racing and give Spec Miata a run for the money.

It may not depreciate down like a Nissan Sentra but it will probably not see the revival of interest that the RX7 FD, Supra, NSX, AE86 have enjoyed.

It is not a more unique car than the MR2 Turbo was... to put things into perspective.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by NemesisPrime909

no

in 10-15 years this will be the new 240sx

You say "no" but then say something that makes my point to a "T". Where the 240 is today is exactly why an unmodified FRS in 10 years will yield a premium on the used market, because it will be rare. Just like an unmodified 240sx is today (or Integra, CRX, S2000).

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The majority of these cars will get bought, left stock, driven daily to the workplace and rarely (if ever) get driven the way they are supposed to be. We have a huge bias that they will all be modded

My bias is what I see everyday. When I see them driving around town, 9 out of 10 are modified. It also doesn't help that the OEM actually designed the car with the expectation they would be modded. Secondly, this car also lends itself to be modified as it appeals to a market more prone to that action and modding is more common in that segment. However, the resale market still puts a penalty on modifications.

Originally Posted by Rampage

I disagree. There are perfect examples of MR2 Spyders and Miatas with very low miles that are 15 or more years old with less than 30K miles on them, babied and never modified and you can still pick them up for 1/2 of their original list price.

And that's why. They sure as hell aren't worth 1/2 of their original list price, but because unmolested versions are so rare they warrant a higher premium. IMHO, a 100% OEM stock CRX si (2nd gen) should be ~$1k-1.5k but finding one is like unicorn hunting and when you do find one it'll probably sell for like $5k. Seriously.. $5k for a CRX. Goddamn. I know this because I've had to find one recently for a ChumpCar build and finding one in OEM form for what it should be worth just wasn't going to happen. After 6 months of hunting I had to settle for one that didn't even have the right engine in it.

A mint Integra Type R just sold recently on Ebay for $43k... totally stock. However, the ITR most likely will be "collector" status before too long but most of them were ruined from theft, not just modding.

Someone else mentioned that 10 years isn't that long but really it is. By 2005 it was almost impossible to find an unmodified Integra GSR. By 2012 it's hard to find an AP1 s2000 that wasn't either abused/neglected or beaten with an ugly stick (modded). I think in 2023 (and these are discontinued by then) the difference in price in the used market between modified and 100% OEM will be quite large.

Originally Posted by Rampage

The prices of good used examples may stabilize and they may start to hold their a portion of their value but I seriously doubt if prices will even reach their bought new price and time in the next 30+ years.

While a cherry twin with low miles might be desirable in the future, it is doubtful that it will ever be considered collectible in the accepted automotive sense of the word IMO.

I agree with both those statements. There would need to be shift in the automotive market very soon to make the FRS a collector like if no other RWD sports car had a manual transmission in the future or no other sports car was made without a hybrid system or something. Something happens where the FRS is sort of the "last of it's kind". If that happens then maybe but yeah.. doubtful.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by 5thGenOwner

I believe the car I almost got instead of my Camaro can be considered a collector (Solstice coupe, see below). Good luck finding one now.

I think the twins definitely have the potential, but only time will tell.

The Sky was on my short list as well, and you are right I think they will be at least semi-depreciation proof if nothing else.

[HUNTERANGEL121]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

The Sky was on my short list as well, and you are right I think they will be at least semi-depreciation proof if nothing else.

My stock sky won't be worth much. And as far as I know, the coupe was only the solstice.
Sky redline will be worth a good bit soon.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by HUNTERANGEL121

My stock sky won't be worth much. And as far as I know, the coupe was only the solstice.
Sky redline will be worth a good bit soon.

Yea, it was the Redline I was looking at.

[HUNTERANGEL121]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Yea, it was the Redline I was looking at.

I really want a redline at this point. Although, I do hate the top. And center console. And steering wheel. It seems too high, and if I lower it, I can't see the top of the tach and speedo

[Packofcrows]

I don't think so, if they continue making them.

It'll be a 350z---->>350z upgraded----->370z now thing.


I see 350's almostn everywhere now! 5 Civics for every 1 350z, and 10 civics for every 1 FRS, but 10 FR-S for every BRZ.

[bodayguy]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

I think in 2023 (and these are discontinued by then) the difference in price in the used market between modified and 100% OEM will be quite large.

The difference is the Twins were pretty much made to be modded.
In the 90s, Integra, 300ZX, etc. etc. cars were not put into a marketplace where the manufacturer knew it would be modded so much, that just happened, and without the huge aftermarket we see today.
A properly and tastefully modded Twin will be more valuable than a stock one, in my view. The stock car has too many weaknesses to need its "purity" intact, whereas an S2000 for example can often be ruined.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by bodayguy

A properly and tastefully modded Twin will be more valuable than a stock one, in my view.

That will be probably be even more rare than a stock one.

[Caspeed]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Or just pray for about 100,000 of them to get totaled!

In my case I only need 1499 to be totaled. Judging by some of the posts I've seen it's more like 1450 by now.

Speaking of which, last week I saw an Alfa 4C that was crunched. Alot of carbon fiber all over the place.