So how many have to die before they...

[rice_classic]

Today's topic:

How many HPDE drivers or instructors have to die before something is done about it? It seems like every other week I'm reading about a lapper or an instructor that died at an event.. For events that are specifically not racing events, why the F is that happening?

You see, it wasn't all that long ago that 200HP at track day was considered a lot of power and 300HP was very rare. But them times, they are a changin'.

Now power is up, like way up and some might say that "ego" is up as well, like it inflated in correlation with the power. But I'll admit the "ego" thing is conjecture and it's always been around. What we know to be true is that organizations need entries and that barriers to entry decrease entries so how many people have to die before the club/track/insurer says enough?

-In racing, the roll cage requirements change for cars with more power, weight or both.

-In drag racing, many strips require cars that can run certain times to run roll bars, beyond that, cages.

So why are cars with 500hp allowed to go flying around a race track at lapping days with nothing but a 3-point seat belt and a helmet? No rollover protection, no cage, no fireproof suit... These fire-breathing monsters simply are not designed to crash at those speeds, they just aren't. The Vette, the GTR, the 911.. non of them are designed to crash at 150mph. They are designed to go 150mph, but not to hit a cement wall at that speed allowing both occupants to walk away.

Prominent people are now talking about speed limits at race tracks..

I think I'm with the drag strips on this one. Cars below a certain power level or even a power:weight ratio, no extra safety equipment needed, above that ratio a roll bar and at some point above that, a cage.

Regardless of the direction, the result will be fewer entries, it just will. The speed limit creates a safety constraint without requiring people to modify their street car for safety but the safety requirements actually make the car safer in an incident on track. But playing at a racetrack is expensive but perhaps where safety is concerned it's not expensive enough.

So, how many have to die?

[CSG Mike]

I dont think a caged car in a 150mph crash will do so hot either...

I just no longer hop into random cars, and when I am right seating, we are there to practice car control, not acceleration. Most drivers have mastered the straight line acceleration skill. Ego or not, any driver willing to accept instruction is very understanding when I explain to them why we're not going to floor it down the straights, and that they can do it when they're alone, but are they at the track to practice a skill they've mastered, or the skills they're trying to master.

[Icanfaptothis86]

speed limits at a race track ? might was well jerk off with sandpaper

[OkieSnuffBox]

A bit of hyperbole don't ya think OP? Every week an HPDE driver or instructor dies?

[Dadhawk]

On a track, controlled to where the only person you can hurt is yourself, I think it is perfectly acceptable for people to assume the risk of killing themselves. If I want to go solo on a track with a jet engine strapped to a skateboard, that should be OK.


On the street is another issue.

[MTCRX]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

On a track, controlled to where the only person you can hurt is yourself, I think it is perfectly acceptable for people to assume the risk of killing themselves. If I want to go solo on a track with a jet engine strapped to a skateboard, that should be OK.

On the street is another issue.

But in this day and age unfortunately the track or promoters will be blamed and probably sued out of existence for your Darwinian activity. I am all for the rocket skateboard, unfortunately responsible people end up paying the price and losing out on the fun.

In addition I have been reading about more HPDE incidents where another driver takes you out because they are unskilled or unfortunate.

[Icanfaptothis86]

on a deeper more darwinian note ... is it reallllly such a bad thing that these ego driven morons find a way off this planet in a quicker manner as long as they dont take anyone else with them?

Honestly I love humbling those fools out there in my underpowered piece of crap on street tires

Struggling to keep up with a 'cute' mini cooper in your BMW M serieces .... very humbling i imagine

[Rampage]

The amount of horsepower and performance that the "average Joe (or Jane)" can walk into a dealership and buy today is borderline insane. You cannot use more than a third of some of those cars potential legally and/or safely on public roads. Even when they "take it to the track" the car's capabilities exceeds the skill set of 95%+ of the owners.

As a long time car nut, I have never been one to advocate limiting horsepower or speed. Maybe I am getting old (no maybe about it actually) but I now believe it is possible for the average Joe with the financial means to buy too much power and performance. After all, you can now walk into a dealership and buy a car that would have exceeded the performance potential of most of the full on race cars from 10-20 years ago. I do not think the skill level of the drivers on the road have improved that much (at all?) in the same period.

HPDE events are meant to be educational opportunities to develop a driver's skill set. Too often they become Time Trials. I have sat and listened to some of the horror stories that instructors tell. If they survive them they are usually laughing about the incidents. Personally, I would not do what they do for anything.

I agree with all the points made in the OP. If something is not done then not only will more people die but HPDE and track days may become a thing of the past for all but the most serious racers.

[Locust]

I have a friend who rolled his Evo at a track because some idiot spun at the crest of a hill and stalled his car right in the middle of the road. Is that Darwinism, Darwinian, or whatever that my friend nearly died instead of the guy who couldn't handle the turn? I'm all for natural selection when people do stupid things like try to pet a lion or try to see what's wrong with their lawnmower without turning it off first but the race track is not the place for it. If you're on a track you need to know what you're doing or have an instructor making you drive safely or you should be yanked off of it.

[OkieSnuffBox]

And $10k will buy a sport bike that will blast most cars off the road or track.

My first track experience was on 2 wheels.

It's up to the organizers and other participants to point out dangerous behavior so it can be corrected or they can be asked to leave/banned.

Also @Dadhawk you can definitely mess someone else up if you blow a braking point, car failure, etc. That's how the guy at Road Atlanta died, oil on the road from the car in front of him blowing up.

If someone isn't comfortable with the risk, they shouldn't do it.

[vroom4]

Did you copy your post word for word from another article that was released a few weeks ago. I seriously JUST read these nearly exact same words

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

You see, it wasn't all that long ago that 200HP at track day was considered a lot of power and 300HP was very rare. But them times, they are a changin'.

I think this is the key factor, the respect for the machines has been lost. I thought I read somewhere that the crashes of note this year have occurred at 40-80 mph speeds, while a speed limit may save lives it will not fix the root of the problem and I believe it will create another problem.

It's quality hands-on instruction, with a firm, stern hand and extremely clear consequences that produces safe lapping. I've seen grown adults who have paid for what was considered top notch instruction flail around a track in a manner that would make some 10 year olds look like pros (I have an uncommonly good group of ten year olds as reference though) while making big claims of their skill, I bet we all have.

Mistakes will happen at any speed, a car can get balled up at 25 mph, and if done in the wrong way in the wrong corner at the wrong track, it can take a life.

I've been with two HPDE groups, one of which I consider to be the reason I am half as decent a driver as I am now and while their rules felt restrictive at the time I had a positive learning experience. The other genuinely gave me moments of fear in the beginners group, from drivers that were supposed to be instructors.

Speed limits are a bandaid, one that I think will only serve to push the guys who are "I drive flatout", the guys that really need the guidance, back to the streets. Sure it may only be a couple hundred across the country, but that's a couple hundred people who will be doing 130 on public roads because they can't do it at the local track. I also can't imagine a newb coming into the first corner at 100mph (limited) getting a consistent braking point and pressure, and then next weekend out he's flying into that corner at 120 for the first time?

Adding safety equipment and regulations, that's cost (regardless of it's effectiveness), even on the guys who could hypothetically afford it because they own cars that can easily exceed 130 mph. It's another headache for the people that cause the problems, another reason to not bother with instruction and paying for track time. And still won't prevent mistakes from happening.

It would be awesome if everyone started out in low powered cars and builds up to their personal cars that would qualify as super cars 20 years ago. But that's an additional cost on the organization and/or the driver, again driving people away.

IMO the community needs to have stronger voices self regulation, kind of like the videogames industry. Lines need to be drawn in the sand and each group must be firmer in their instruction and rules when out on track and more wary of allowing untested drivers to progress out of novice groups. I'm no genius but that leads me to an organization that certifies track programs for safety, a yearly audit of an event along with some guidelines. Expensive, but hassle free for the drivers (which keeps them coming) and if all the groups play nice and band together to create and maintain the certification process/review it can be a seamless improvement to the level of safety (and quality) across all groups.

[vroom4]

Just reread the original story quick by Ross Bentley....looks like you may have read it too...

[chaoskaze]

Sounds like it has more to do with bad/outdated track design/regulation & ppl with a huge **** died jerking off.

That aside, US driver's aid is like kindergarten compare to lots advance countries... those country improve the driver's ed year by year while US drivers ed is stuck in 1950s. The general lack of drive's sense is scary.