Lack of tuning data due to ECUtek?

[350matt]

Gents

heres a poser for you, as the majority of tuned cars are running ECUtek this means the map values and tune 'data' ends being closely gaurded as this is the tuner's livelihood and product

now if the ECUtek business model were to change so the product was released as open for the end user do we think that this would devalue the 'tune' numbers and make it more open source ?

Ie would we be more inclined to share maps and data with each other ?

Or am I being hopelessly naive?

[Tromatic]

There is a very lively "open" tuning discussion going on right here in this forum. Tunes done by a well-known tuner being tossed around for everyone to see. Thread titles may or may not contain the word "open". There is a very strong move away from proprietary tuning. The hardware may be different, and you still are going to be (hopefully) paying for the expertise of the people doing the tuning, especially if it's a custom tune for your car, but the secret-squirrel stuff is going away.

[Kodename47]

ECUtek logs can give enough away for general ideas on how the car is setup. I have no idea what the actual map table values are but I can see what the aim/end result is. The values you can log are endless.

Wait for the new @EcuTek announcement, it may be worthwhile

As @Tromatic said, you can go and download and view all the OFT stuff without the need to purchase the OFT itself and there's plenty of discussion on that subject.
@350matt are you looking to tune the car yourself. TBH, there's a hoard of good ECUtek tuners over here on this platform that have good reputations: Abbey Motorsport, Fensport, Litchfield and Tuning Dynamics. Those covers most of the country. Having spoken in depth with 3 of those, they know their stuff!

[jamesm]

the platform will open up as it becomes more accessible to the masses. we've only had 'open' tuning solutions available for a couple months if that and we're already starting to see that happen.

actually if you think about it right now there is only one closed platform and multiple open ones. if this market is anything like the other platforms for which open tuning is available, over time people will migrate away from ecutek and eventually pretty much everyone will be tuned using an open platform. this is accelerated by people waking up to the fact that most of the e-tunes they paid for but can't see are far from optimal, if even safe to drive around on.

how many viscontis does it take to get a community to demand to see what they're getting for their money? apparently one lol.

[ecko04]

Here's my $0.02

The tuners who I've built relationships with who tune this platform have been using ECUTek and state that they won't change. Now, that could be due to skepticism, unfamiliarity with a new product, stubbornness to change, abandoning the investment in ECUTek, comfort level with ECUTek or any combination of the above.

I see the value and usefulness of open tuning solutions.

From my perspective as a consumer, I've used the same tuner since 2007. I've talked to other tuners and buy products from other shops but by and large when it comes to vehicle tuning, I go to 1 place and 1 person. The shop/tuner and customer relationship is vital.

My tuner locks his maps. Why? Because I've been witness to customers who have taken the product of his labor and opened their own shops. They then use his tune to tune their customers vehicles. There was a time when my tuner didn't lock anything. The first vehicle I had tuned by him used the AEM FIC. I could see every value and make changes. I never made changes but the ability to do so was there.

When you put a lot of intellectual property into a product it's particularly frustrating to see someone else reap the benefits of your labor.

The ECUTek model is frustrating because the option to make changes is not there unless you drop the thousands upon thousands to be a ECUTek licensed tuner. Personally, even if it were, I wouldn't make changes but that's just me.

However, the most important thing for me is the ability to data log and that's something I can do. So yes while the map itself is locked from someone taking his map and making changes, the ability to monitor the health of the vehicle is still there.

As the market shifts, the businesses who rely on it will too. I believe the tuner should be able to lock down his map if he wants. This is where the relationship between tuner, customer and vehicle is vital. The last thing the tuner wants is to see his map circulating around the internet. We have to remember that it's his livelihood.

Ultimately it's the proprietary nature of the ECUTek model that's the problem. The option to make a map change isn't present and that ticks a lot of people off. For businesses that have made the investment and tuners who have spent the time learning the interface of ECUTek, moving away from it will be a hard sell.

[Kodename47]

Originally Posted by ecko04

The option to make a map change isn't present and that ticks a lot of people off.

What will happen if it does come present?

[ecko04]

Originally Posted by Kodename47

What will happen if it does come present?

Then there will be another complaint like the cost of the cable or license. It's human nature to complain but I think when that becomes available as well as live tuning the majority of the complaints will be resolved.

[CSG Mike]

The tuners we use TEACH tuning to the general public (for a fee of course). Most of the people who attend these classes end up paying to get a tune anyways.

There's a big difference between doing your own tune on one car, and spending hundreds of hours fine tuning it, versus the experience of a tuner who's done tens of thousands of cars with several assistants giving him feedback in real time.

[DJCarbine]

As someone who tuned their own car from scratch many years ago, no matter how much I fine tuned it and looked over my logs and made revisions... the car did a LOT better once a tuner looked everything over. Its easy enough to make your AFR look good and tweak timing to remove knock... its another thing to be doing it for a living and to understand all the nuances of tuning a car.

There were also a lot of people who blew engines and did NOT know what they were doing when tuning cars (hondata/Kpro, think of it as ecutek with end user ability to make any change you want) and simply tried to make their AFR look good and add as much timing as possible without knock.

"Open" tuning is awesome, but its not for everyone. For the experienced people its an awesome option!

Lean protection and boost cut were several things that DID save inexperienced people a blown motor. Open loop fueling and your AFR goes leaner than a preset amount? Immediate spark cut (depending on the delay thresholds). Boost goes above a preset value? Immediate spark cut.

This is all just my opinion. If I had the time to actually tune my car nowadays (and the option was available when I went FI) I would be all over the "open" options


In the end, no matter how much information is out there your car is different and what works for one car may not work for you, you still need the know how to make changes/tweak your car. The information is out there, there are/were several good video tutorials on tuning but they really only scratch the surface IMO.

[Tromatic]

Originally Posted by DJCarbine

There were also a lot of people who blew engines and did NOT know what they were doing when tuning cars (hondata/Kpro, think of it as ecutek with end user ability to make any change you want) and simply tried to make their AFR look good and add as much timing as possible without knock.

I must admit I am looking forward to the creative ways people blow up their engines with this stuff. I know enough to know I know squat about it, and will have mine done by someone who knows what they are doing.

[DJCarbine]

Originally Posted by Tromatic

I must admit I am looking forward to the creative ways people blow up their engines with this stuff. I know enough to know I know squat about it, and will have mine done by someone who knows what they are doing.

Its easy to avoid, but when you are starting out you make mistakes.
Lean cut probably saved me on more than a few occasions due to weather changes and poor compensation tables. You learn very quickly though, as a necessity.

[jamesm]

i agree with everything above, except that it seems to be taken for granted that if you pay someone else to do it everything will be ok, and that's absolutely not the case. if you know a great tuner, preferably locally, who has experience with your particular type of setup and you can afford a lot of their time that's great, but that's not the majority of us. e-tunes have proven to be hit or miss, and responsiveness to support requests is an inevitable issue. it's not just as easy as writing a check and being done with it, in any case.

everyone is absolutely right when they say that it's a whole lot different to tune your car versus being an actual tuner that does it for a living. i love tuning my car, it's 90% of the reason why i buy all the stuff to begin with, the fun part. i'm especially loving it on the 86, as it's my first time really diving into it head first and starting from scratch. that said, i wouldn't wish the job of doing it for other people on my worst enemy. the customer service alone seems like a nightmare.

real tuners can do things those of us who go our own way can't for sure, but i care far more about figuring it out than i do about just getting it done. there's no fun in writing a check. every person will want something different, but for me that is it, and those last few % aren't worth giving it up for.

[DeliciousTuning]

Originally Posted by 350matt

Gents

heres a poser for you, as the majority of tuned cars are running ECUtek this means the map values and tune 'data' ends being closely gaurded as this is the tuner's livelihood and product

now if the ECUtek business model were to change so the product was released as open for the end user do we think that this would devalue the 'tune' numbers and make it more open source ?

Ie would we be more inclined to share maps and data with each other ?

Or am I being hopelessly naive?

I would answer this in two ways. One via the end user, who has a full time job and the professional tuner.

End User - Open Tuning
- I think this is a great solution for the end user who would like to keep the price down, has a little extra time to devote to playing with their vehicle and learning the ins/outs of the vehicle through the ECU. It is a great learning tool and a great way to interact with others. As an end user it is a great solution especially when provided by a well respected company who can support it through its professional tuner network.

Professional Tuner - Open Tuning
- I am open to the idea and willing to "guide" people in the correct direction but I will not give away the farm, literally. This is how us tuners do what we love and make a living doing so. I do think it is a great way to give the end user a true real world experience of tuning and allow for them to choose if they want to tune themselves or leave it to their local professionals they trust.

Cheers,
William Knose

[CajunFRS]

I haven't seen to many bad tunes getting refunded. Hopefully I'm wrong though. I know not having a Ecutek Tuner near me is a big turn off to do FI. If the base map doesn't work well then I don't have many options. With Ecutek I can't just let anyone modify it.

You would think at the very least a 100% refund would be available if the tune doesn't run right. I understand a tuner doesn't want anyone to steal his tune. Buy a Cable/License/Tune #1 that would be enough to actually own the tune.

It's easy to see that Ecutek is a great application and it makes tuning easier for shops. Plenty of options and built in features. Considering the fact that I don't "own" anything the license should at least be cheap. Till people stop paying for it then it isn't going to change. I've had cars tuned but never spent 1k on a tune. Although I have never put FI on a n/a car. So this could be the norm as far as pricing is concerned. I just feel like i'd be SOL if my tune gave me issues with me being so far away from Ecutek Shop.